Students requesting help in D&P forum

[ChewChewTrain]

Posting here in the hope that more latitude will be permitted.

Many of those who ask for help in the Disputes & Prosecutions forum, having been unable to produce a valid ticket for a journey, say they’re worried how it will affect them because they’re students (often, but not always, medical students).

Am I the only one who finds this very concerning? They’re hoping to go into trusted professions where people’s lives are in their hands, and they’re doing things like this. What else are they up to?

I know: youthful mistakes, second chances, and all that. But do they really learn their lesson? Can we really be confident that once they begin their careers in earnest, they will resist the temptations they will inevitably encounter to “fiddle” this or that to benefit themselves? If they’re prepared to do wrong just to save a few bob, are they really going to stand firm and not do so when the stakes are far higher?

Do you want someone like this as your doctor/nurse/lawyer/etc? I’m not at all sure I do.

 

[dakta]

I do understand people messing up when young, taking chances and basically being foolish - that is a thing! Though I won't lie it has occured to me the proportions that seem to be on medical courses

Probably more to do with that side having quite potentially serious ramifications over other types of courses

 

[Gloster]

I am also concerned about the number of students who ask for help who seem to be incapable of writing clearly. Too many of the original posters’ posts are badly spelt, ungrammatical and appallingly punctuated; many sentences are interminably long. Some are so bad that sections are difficult to understand. If they can’t put their case clearly when they fear the result may damage their career prospects, when can they?

Some years ago The Grauniad’s consumer help section had a letter from a law student (yes, a law student) who had bought an on-line essay to save themselves doing the work, found it to be of poor quality and wanted help in getting their money back. The paper’s advice seemed to come through gritted teeth and the readers’ comments were mostly on the lines of, ‘Do you think you should join the legal profession if you are doing this.”

 

[ChewChewTrain]

I am also concerned about the number of students who ask for help who seem to be incapable of writing clearly. Too many of the original posters’ posts are badly spelt, ungrammatical and appallingly punctuated; many sentences are interminably long. Some are so bad that sections are difficult to understand. If they can’t put their case clearly when they fear the result may damage their career prospects, when can they?

Hardly surprising given some of the writing I’ve seen from lecturers (and, not infrequently, professors). Had I submitted something written to that standard in my last couple of years at primary school, my teacher would have made her displeasure very clear, and rightly so. It wasn’t even that long ago!

 

[lachlan]

Posting here in the hope that more latitude will be permitted.

Many of those who ask for help in the Disputes & Prosecutions forum, having been unable to produce a valid ticket for a journey, say they’re worried how it will affect them because they’re students (often, but not always, medical students).

Am I the only one who finds this very concerning? They’re hoping to go into trusted professions where people’s lives are in their hands, and they’re doing things like this. What else are they up to?

I know: youthful mistakes, second chances, and all that. But do they really learn their lesson? Can we really be confident that once they begin their careers in earnest, they will resist the temptations they will inevitably encounter to “fiddle” this or that to benefit themselves? If they’re prepared to do wrong just to save a few bob, are they really going to stand firm and not do so when the stakes are far higher?

Do you want someone like this as your doctor/nurse/lawyer/etc? I’m not at all sure I do.

I don't think it's fair to label everyone posting in the disputes forum as untrustworthy given the financial pressures facing everyone. I imagine students are particularly hard hit given the increase in rent and energy costs. Train journeys are not always by choice. I'm not trying to justify fare dodging just pointing out that some people may feel forced to do it and are not trying to "fiddle" anything

 

[swt_passenger]

I remember a very similar thread started a few years ago about the remarkable number of law students who were posting, suddenly worried about the possible effect on their future in the profession.

Always made me wonder exactly what they were being taught…

 

[AlterEgo]

Of course it’s perfectly probably that some of the “medical students” are anything but. It ticks all the boxes - a noble profession, one which requires very hard work, usually people have by default a positive opinion of budding doctors, and there are serious ramifications for convictions involving dishonesty.

I’m very wary of taking anything at face value in that part of the forum!

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Of course it’s perfectly probably that some of the “medical students” are anything but. It ticks all the boxes - a noble profession, one which requires very hard work, usually people have by default a positive opinion of budding doctors, and there are serious ramifications for convictions involving dishonesty.

I’m very wary of taking anything at face value in that part of the forum!

Given that many asking for help seem to believe they will only get decent advice if they make themselves look as sympathetic as possible (e.g. “the inspector was intimidating and so I panicked and gave false details which is like totally out of character for me”), you could very well be right. I hadn’t actually considered that possibility…

 

[spyinthesky]

I don't think it's fair to label everyone posting in the disputes forum as untrustworthy given the financial pressures facing everyone. I imagine students are particularly hard hit given the increase in rent and energy costs. Train journeys are not always by choice. I'm not trying to justify fare dodging just pointing out that some people may feel forced to do it and are not trying to "fiddle" anything

Unfortunately labels are hard to remove, fair or not.
With the cost of living crisis everyone has to make an informed decision. Taking the decision to break bylaws or laws for a few quid and risk a career will be seen as less trustworthy than those that pay.
I know a fair few medical students who don’t seem to be in crisis and have made the correct choices in lowering their outgoings in other areas such as social gatherings and eating out.
There may well be a few errant students on the threads but it seems most arrive there by the decisions that they have made.

 

[ComUtoR]

He who is without sin; cast the first stone.

 

[spyinthesky]

2 points, 2 flats and a bag of gravel please

 

[lyndhurst25]

I once knew a medical student who thought that it was a good idea to to alter the expiry date on his Merseyside Trio bus and rail pass, but thankfully persuaded him that it was most definitely not a good idea before he got caught. He knew it was wrong and I put it down to him bring quite immature with little experience of life. Quite a few students, medical or otherwise, go to university having led sheltered lives and have never even used public transport. They equate fiddling the railway to breaking some minor school rule and not something that could end up in court or giving them a criminal record. AFAIK the person in question is now an upstanding member of the medical profession.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

He who is without sin; cast the first stone.

Misunderstood Bible passages in “my” thread now? Should I be worried or flattered by this development?

Jesus, for those who care, said that because his enemies were trying to set him up to screw himself. It was not some anarchist condemnation of the very concept of justice. I simply want the many decent and morally upright people in our society (who, of course, are still not “without sin”) to be the ones who assume the roles where such qualities are important. It seems to me, though ICBW, that we are getting further from that goal, which I find alarming. If that’s allowed, of course.

What next: “Judge not”?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Of course it’s perfectly probably that some of the “medical students” are anything but. It ticks all the boxes - a noble profession, one which requires very hard work, usually people have by default a positive opinion of budding doctors, and there are serious ramifications for convictions involving dishonesty.

I’m very wary of taking anything at face value in that part of the forum!

Absolutely agree. And many also seemed to have joined the Forum just before they post (probably their first post). Assuming the posts are genuine and not wind ups I suspect many have been caught and are googling the subject with this Forum a regular "find".

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Absolutely agree. And many also seemed to have joined the Forum just before they post (probably their first post). Assuming the posts are genuine and not wind ups I suspect many have been caught and are googling the subject with this Forum a regular "find".

True, I’m sure, but I’m puzzled as to what that has to do with whether or not they’re really medical students! Sorry if I misunderstood you.

 

[Iskra]

I would also suggest that medical/law students may be more what I call 'book clever,' rather than truly wise to the ways of the world, meaning they probably aren't very good fare dodgers but because of their intelligence are possibly over-confident enough to try it.

Do RPI stings target areas with prominent student populations too?

 

[Peterthegreat]

True, I’m sure, but I’m puzzled as to what that has to do with whether or not they’re really medical students! Sorry if I misunderstood you.

Sorry I don't understand what you're getting at. I was agreeing with @AlterEgo in that I'm sceptical about the veracity of some of the posts on the disputes part of the forum. I didn't mean to particularly refer to medical students.

 

[Adam Williams]

Am I the only one who finds this very concerning? They’re hoping to go into trusted professions where people’s lives are in their hands, and they’re doing things like this. What else are they up to?

I know: youthful mistakes, second chances, and all that. But do they really learn their lesson? Can we really be confident that once they begin their careers in earnest, they will resist the temptations they will inevitably encounter to “fiddle” this or that to benefit themselves? If they’re prepared to do wrong just to save a few bob, are they really going to stand firm and not do so when the stakes are far higher?

Do you want someone like this as your doctor/nurse/lawyer/etc? I’m not at all sure I do.

I'd be more interested in how good they are at medicine / law, to be honest, than something dumb they did at university and I'm not at all convinced by the suggestion that there must be "other things that they are up to" if they bought a child ticket once. I don't see that this sort of offence, if disclosed, should have any impact on fitness to practice unless it a) formed some sort of a pattern to suggest that the perpetrator hadn't learnt at all from their mistakes or b) met some higher bar pointing at more sophisticated fraud.

That's not me condoning fare evasion at all, but it needs to be interpreted in context. Frankly, right now is not the time to be fussing over minor transgressions like this when junior doctors are ridiculously underpaid and students are facing even greater cost of living pressures (particularly since the NHS bursary has lagged far, far behind inflation). There is a colossal shortage of GPs and other NHS staff.

I'd rather be seen by a past-fare-evader than not be seen at all for weeks!

 

[skyhigh]

And many also seemed to have joined the Forum just before they post (probably their first post). Assuming the posts are genuine and not wind ups I suspect many have been caught and are googling the subject with this Forum a regular "find".

In your opinion, is that a problem?

 

[Peterthegreat]

In your opinion, is that a problem?

Are you asking me whether the the statement "......(probably their first post)" is my opinion or whether I think it is a problem if it is their first post?

 

[BJames]

I once knew a medical student who thought that it was a good idea to to alter the expiry date on his Merseyside Trio bus and rail pass, but thankfully persuaded him that it was most definitely not a good idea before he got caught. He knew it was wrong and I put it down to him bring quite immature with little experience of life. Quite a few students, medical or otherwise, go to university having led sheltered lives and have never even used public transport. They equate fiddling the railway to breaking some minor school rule and not something that could end up in court or giving them a criminal record. AFAIK the person in question is now an upstanding member of the medical profession.

I agree with this. I am at University and there are definitely fellow students who don't quite grasp the magnitude of fare evasion (often ranging from not paying on the NET Tram network but going up to refunding tickets on Trainline). Some people I spoke to had never been on a train before university. They think not paying for ticket = paying when an inspector comes round or, at absolute worst, receiving a penalty fare. Even with signs up regarding prosecution for not paying, many think this is a scare tactic rather than a genuine potential outcome.

For what it's worth, despite all of these opinions, there are many others who do everything to the letter of the law in fear for jeopardising future careers, even when people around them in the same group are not paying for tickets etc.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I agree that many of the students, medical or otherwise, do not have the faintest clue as to the potential impact of a fare-dodging episode until they are caught. The same also applies to many of the non-students who get on the hamster wheel of fare avoidance to find they can't easily jump off again.

Perhaps something that universities should stress during fresher's week, especially with those pursuing a career with high ethical standards that are policed by the likes of the GMC.

 

[ABB125]

I once knew a medical student who thought that it was a good idea to to alter the expiry date on his Merseyside Trio bus and rail pass, but thankfully persuaded him that it was most definitely not a good idea before he got caught. He knew it was wrong and I put it down to him bring quite immature with little experience of life. Quite a few students, medical or otherwise, go to university having led sheltered lives and have never even used public transport. They equate fiddling the railway to breaking some minor school rule and not something that could end up in court or giving them a criminal record. AFAIK the person in question is now an upstanding member of the medical profession.

I agree with this. I am at University and there are definitely fellow students who don't quite grasp the magnitude of fare evasion (often ranging from not paying on the NET Tram network but going up to refunding tickets on Trainline). Some people I spoke to had never been on a train before university. They think not paying for ticket = paying when an inspector comes round or, at absolute worst, receiving a penalty fare. Even with signs up regarding prosecution for not paying, many think this is a scare tactic rather than a genuine potential outcome.

For what it's worth, despite all of these opinions, there are many others who do everything to the letter of the law in fear for jeopardising future careers, even when people around them in the same group are not paying for tickets etc.

A lot of students seem to think that not paying for your ticket is something positive and should be encouraged. I once used then unofficial university anonymous Facebook page to moan about people not paying. I was accused* of being a "bootlicker", and it sparked an interesting debate, including people encouraging shoplifting!

*Not that anyone knew it was me!

Do RPI stings target areas with prominent student populations too?

Fairly often at Selly Oak.

 

[BJames]

Definitely when people get away with it once, they get a little cocky and think they'll be able to get away with it again. During freshers at our uni, there's always stands at the fair with NET representatives and they talk a lot about fare evasion but are mainly there to sell the academic year passes.

A lot of students seem to think that not paying for your ticket is something positive and should be encouraged. I once used then unofficial university anonymous Facebook page to moan about people not paying. I was accused* of being a "bootlicker", and it sparked an interesting debate, including people encouraging shoplifting!

*Not that anyone knew it was me!

Fairly often at Selly Oak.

Indeed I've heard similar re. shoplifting (much along the lines of "never from a small business but from chains is ok"!)

 

[Dai Corner]

Definitely when people get away with it once, they get a little cocky and think they'll be able to get away with it again. During freshers at our uni, there's always stands at the fair with NET representatives and they talk a lot about fare evasion but are mainly there to sell the academic year passes.

Indeed I've heard similar re. shoplifting (much along the lines of "never from a small business but from chains is ok"!)

Oh yes, the wealthy, evil , tax-evading capitalists who many of the students will be hoping will give them jobs after they've graduated!