Student chases train for a mile

[route:oxford]

What is official policy on cases like this where a card does not work and passenger has no other payment?

The merchant should fall back to manual arrangements to process cards (that they normally accept) in accordance with the licence terms for card acceptance.

 

[tsr]

There couldn't and there wasn't.

If you could prove this by demonstrating the full list of train movements possible on that day, including any which didn't actually occur but which there was capacity for, I shall be happy believe you. I am happy for you to PM these details to me. I hope I don't sound rude - I'm not trying to be - I just want to see the evidence!

Firstly there deffinately could have been another train. Just because none are timetabled and its a single line dosnt mean there will not be another train there-I have already explained why.

As for high voltage cables the signalling cables are 110v and have been known to be live through damaged insulation.

Then there are the other dangers already mentioned-sleepers are very slippery, debris blown about make trip hazards, ballast is incredibly hard to walk on, I have slipped over before walking on ballast-it just moves beneath your feet. Say she slipped and hit her head on a rail, stranded lying across the track for the next train an hour later to get her.

As for the earlier post saying the track is straight with good view of approaching trains that's irrelevant-how about in the fog, or even in a clear day trains seem further than they are and even diesels are practically silent until on top of you.

I can't understand your reasoning for trying to say that this section if railway isn't dangerous?

Thank you for summarising the situation (instead of what would doubtless have been quite a long-winded explanation from me!)

 

[Tomnick]

Not wishing to defend the actions of the individual concerned, but to put the unnecessary argument to bed regarding the ability of a second train to approach - the Colne branch is one long OTW section so there's no chance of anything else approaching with something already moving on the branch (unless something's gone very wrong), and no opportunity to shut anything inside at the far end. As always though - never assume that this will be the case: always be expecting something to approach unless you're personally protected (which this young lady was, of course, not).

 

[A-driver]

As unlikely as it may be there are still out if course situations which may see a 2nd train or possibly that same train turning round to run back the other way.

My point is that you can't make these kind if assumptions and certainly can never say never.

 

[craigwilson]

The merchant should fall back to manual arrangements to process cards (that they normally accept) in accordance with the licence terms for card acceptance.

How often does this actually happen (rather than just doling out a UFN etc)?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I make a point of buying beforehand or having cash to buy a ticket onboard for this very reason...I have no idea whether my card will work off-line so would rather not take the chance.

 

[GB]

And you've explained incorrectly. Talking generally about single track lines does not mean that is the case on this particular branch.

How are you so certain there could not be any further train movements?

 

[Tomnick]

As unlikely as it may be there are still out if course situations which may see a 2nd train or possibly that same train turning round to run back the other way.

My point is that you can't make these kind if assumptions and certainly can never say never.

Quite correct - I agree entirely! It is, of course, one of the basic rules of personal safety. Since 'evidence' is now being requested, however, I thought it worth confirming that (apart from the possibility of the same train returning) there was no chance of anything else correctly moving on the branch at that moment.
W

 

[GodAtum]

I witnessed a similar incident at Marlow. There is an hourly train service to maidenhead and this lady just missed the train so she ran all the way along the platform screaming and crying. She got to the end and nearly ran down onto the tracks before she thought twice about it.

 

[pitdiver]

Why all this argument /discussion the railway is a dangerous place to be for anybody. She should not have been there end of story!

I am not just saying that. I was a certified protection master for LUL so I know what it's all about.

 

[the sniper]

She got off lightly. Given that she was only given a £50 PND, I imagine that she was dealt with by Lancashire Police rather than BTP. The quote on the article supports this.

If she'd been caught by BTP I very much doubt she'd have just got a PND. She'd probably have been reported for process and had to appear before a Magistrate, after which she'd have probably faced a £200+ fine.

 

[Temple Meads]

My point is that you can't make these kind if assumptions and certainly can never say never.

True, but with non passenger movements being very rare on this stretch of line, the risk isn't much higher than walking along your average street, a car might veer off the road and strike you, a mugger might stab you, you might trip over an uneven paving slab, fall over and end in the road in the path of an oncoming car.

Yes, this woman has made a grave error of judgement, but "this horrible thing might happen" scenarios can be found in every day life, not just the railway.

 

[A-driver]

True, but with non passenger movements being very rare on this stretch of line, the risk isn't much higher than walking along your average street, a car might veer off the road and strike you, a mugger might stab you, you might trip over an uneven paving slab, fall over and end in the road in the path of an oncoming car.

Yes, this woman has made a grave error of judgement, but "this horrible thing might happen" scenarios can be found in every day life, not just the railway.

My argument is not to di with the likelihood of being injured here but the attitude of believing a particular line is safer than others to trespass on. A railway line is a railway line. It dosnt matter if its the bit from kings cross to wood green or the bit from Coln to burnly. It's still a railway with exactly the same dangers. Trying to say a certain bit is safer is really dodgy. Once again its the case that a little knowledge can be very dangerous.

 

[snail]

possibly that same train turning round to run back the other way.

Just out of curiosity, I'm not saying it can't happen, but how many times will a scheduled train from Colne to Blackpool be turned round mid-journey?

My guess is a number less than 1 on that particular stretch (which is well under a mile, more like 600 yds).

I think the outrage at someone getting on a railway without permission is clouding reality here. Yes it was a stupid and dangerous act but some of the responses are bordering on that themselves.

 

[A-driver]

Just out of curiosity, I'm not saying it can't happen, but how many times will a scheduled train from Colne to Blackpool be turned round mid-journey?

My guess is a number less than 1 on that particular stretch (which is well under a mile, more like 600 yds).

I think the outrage at someone getting on a railway without permission is clouding reality here. Yes it was a stupid and dangerous act but some of the responses are bordering on that themselves.

It's not likely but certainly not impossible-a problem with the line ahead may see it being forced to return to a previous station to de-train, same with a train fault in the Preston end cab etc.

 

[transmanche]

Firstly there deffinately could have been another train. Just because none are timetabled and its a single line dosnt mean there will not be another train there-I have already explained why.

As for high voltage cables the signalling cables are 110v and have been known to be live through damaged insulation.

Then there are the other dangers already mentioned-sleepers are very slippery, debris blown about make trip hazards, ballast is incredibly hard to walk on, I have slipped over before walking on ballast-it just moves beneath your feet. Say she slipped and hit her head on a rail, stranded lying across the track for the next train an hour later to get her.

As for the earlier post saying the track is straight with good view of approaching trains that's irrelevant-how about in the fog, or even in a clear day trains seem further than they are and even diesels are practically silent until on top of you.

Now I'm going to play devil's advocate here - I am not condoning what this person did!

Other than the length of time she was on the track (increasing the opportunity that any of the above could happen), what's the difference between what she did and using this foot crossing on the Tyne Valley line. Because everything you said above is true of that foot crossing too. (This stretch of line sees 2tph in each direction, plus freight traffic.)

Again, remember I'm playing devil's advocate - some people might argue that if it's "safe" to use that foot crossing, then why is what she did deemed to be dangerous - and vice versa.

[Mods: feel free to move this to a new thread if you think it's too off-topic.]

All photos were taken from behind the wooden gate.

 

[sprinterguy]

It's not likely but certainly not impossible-a problem with the line ahead may see it being forced to return to a previous station to de-train, same with a train fault in the Preston end cab etc.

I do actually agree that the woman involved should never have put herself in a position of harm on the railway infrastructure, so I apologise that a debate on the matter has arisen. However:

Given that the woman was chasing after the train in question, do you not think that she might see the train change direction on this dead straight section of line in this highly unlikely scenario?

 

[route:oxford]

How often does this actually happen (rather than just doling out a UFN etc)

No idea.

But if it happened to me, I'd make a formal complaint to the relevant card issuer (Amex/Mastercard/Visa) that I'd been treated unfavourably by a merchant due to the failure of their equipment, and demand that they investigate and fine the relevant merchant under their international rules for card acceptance and settlement.

 

[142094]

IIRC Nelson Interchange has a booking office since the station was done up recently. The Colne line also is well known for people either not buying tickets or trying to get on and pay on board with credit/debit cards that either cannot be used or have no funds on them.

 

[PR1Berske]

I read this story and think that the police, the woman, and Northern Rail, all seem to be at fault. There appears to be an issue with the woman (her lack of organisation and reaction), the police (if the question they are quoted as asking is accurate), and NR.

Published on Monday 17 December 2012 14:16

A university student who risked her life as she chased a train over a rail viaduct in a desperate bid to retrieve assignments she had left on board said she was “embarrassed” by what happened and insisted the incident was the result of a misunderstanding.

The 34-year-old woman, who lives in Brierfield and studies at the University of Central Lancashire in Preston, had left the train to buy a ticket at Burnley Central Station after her bank card was declined by a conductor’s chip and pin machine.

She was advised by the conductor to get off and buy a ticket from the kiosk at the next stop but as she was about to get back on the train it pulled out of Burnley Central.

She then gave chase along the line, forcing a train coming the other way to grind to a halt.

Railway staff eventually stopped her and called police. She was later quizzed on suspicion of trespassing on a railway line and issued with a £50 fixed penalty notice.

The woman, who is studying for a masters degree at and came to the UK from Pakistan in August, said she just panicked when she saw the train move away from the station. She was travelling from Brierfield to Preston on the Colne to Blackpool train.

“I didn’t know I would be fined,” she said. If I’d have known I wouldn’t have done it. I was buying a ticket and I looked over and saw the train moving away.

“I was just crying because I had two assignments on there on a USB stick which needed to be handed in. I also lost my bank card while I was on the track. It was a complete misunderstanding. I just panicked.

“In Pakistan it’s not unusual for people to be on the track but here the police asked me if I had mental health problems. It’s so embarrassing.”

Insp. Adrian Yorston, from British Transport Police, said: “The woman’s actions were foolhardy and completely irresponsible.

“Thankfully she wasn’t injured as a result of trespassing but that is only through good luck and the awareness of rail staff.”

A Northern Rail spokeswoman added: “We would like to remind passengers to take their belongings with them when they leave the train to reduce incidents such as this happening again. Not only did the woman’s actions cause delays to others but she also put own safety at risk by trespassing on the tracks.

“We ask that all passengers boarding at a station that has an open ticket office or a ticket vending machine (TVM), to purchase tickets before getting on the train.

“This particular passenger made the decision to leave the train at Burnley Central to purchase a ticket after her card was declined on-board.

Source - http://www.lep.co.uk/news/business/student-tells-of-rail-shame-1-5232923

 

[ainsworth74]

Duplicate post merged.

 

[bb21]

Other than the length of time she was on the track (increasing the opportunity that any of the above could happen), what's the difference between what she did and using this foot crossing on the Tyne Valley line. Because everything you said above is true of that foot crossing too. (This stretch of line sees 2tph in each direction, plus freight traffic.)

The level crossing would have had risk-assessments done taking into consideration visibility, line speed, frequency of train movements and other relevant factors. There is always a risk when using such a crossing however the risk would have been deemed small enough for the crossing to be passed.

 

[Goatboy]

She then gave chase along the line, forcing a train coming the other way to grind to a halt.

So it's not a single line? What a confusing article.

 

[tec]

Did the woman get her USB stick returned safely?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

The level crossing would have had risk-assessments done taking into consideration visibility, line speed, frequency of train movements and other relevant factors. There is always a risk when using such a crossing however the risk would have been deemed small enough for the crossing to be passed.

Not to mention that drivers would be aware of the potential for pedestrians on the track at a designated crossing point, not on Burnley viaduct...

 

[Jonny]

So it's not a single line? What a confusing article.

It is a single line, just that it happens to be the end of single-line working where it joins the Blackburn-Todmorden line

 

[34D]

I'm surprised at the nature of the comments on this thread. What appears to have happened is:

-The passenger boarded at Brierfield which has no ticket office and no tvm

-Her card was probably fine

-when the conductor tried to process her payment the train was in an area of poor GSM signal and so the card auto-declined

-the conductor got a little too officious and told her to get off at the next stop to buy a ticket

-she followed his instruction, quite understandably believing that the train would wait for her

-she then saw her personal belongings and university work departing, and (quite understandably) panicked.

From the information I have read, the guard is at fault and deserves a meeting without coffee or biscuits.

 

[reb0118]

-Her card was probably fine

-when the conductor tried to process her payment the train was in an area of poor GSM signal and so the card auto-declined

I am making a few assumptions here from my experience:-

1) As a foreign national who may not have been in the UK long enough to build up a credit history she has probably been issued with an authorise all transactions (AAT) debit card - these cards can not be used in the chip & pin devices issued to ontrain staff and will always decline.

2) If the passenger does not have any other means to purchase a ticket then they may be requested to leave the train at the next staffed station to purchase a ticket there. Note that the railway has not declined the transaction BUT the passenger's bank has - the passenger should be informed to contact their bank for further advice and also politely informed that if they wish to purchase tickets onboard in future that they MUST carry enough cash.

3) If the guard/TE has time and the relevant training then they may contact the automated card helpline to obtain an authorisation number to process the transaction or an UFN or TIR may be completed, again if time permits.

4) You must not allow your train to be delayed whilst a passenger leaves to buy a ticket but you may show discretion by allowing the passenger to remain on your train until you reach a station with a higher frequency of services to the passenger's destination.