Strikes - political or something deeper?

[TheEdge]

Open this thread with a statement, this is not about the pros and cons of any of specific strike but more what they could mean (or not).

The government are now spouting a line that the current wave of strikes is just a concerted attempt to bring down the government. Now to me that sounds like looking at them the wrong way. To have ongoing industrial action from ASLEF, RMT, TSSA, CWU, Unite and PPU would indicate to me something else could be going on.

Could this wave of strikes be the start of a movement among a growing number of disenfranchised workers who are well and truly bored of being effectively stomped on from up high? Watching pensions, pay and job security for the masses being demolished as the up highs stay high and dry. Or just a noisy minority?

 

[bramling]

Open this thread with a statement, this is not about the pros and cons of any of specific strike but more what they could mean (or not).

The government are now spouting a line that the current wave of strikes is just a concerted attempt to bring down the government. Now to me that sounds like looking at them the wrong way. To have ongoing industrial action from ASLEF, RMT, TSSA, CWU, Unite and PPU would indicate to me something else could be going on.

Could this wave of strikes be the start of a movement among a growing number of disenfranchised workers who are well and truly bored of being effectively stomped on from up high? Watching pensions, pay and job security for the masses being demolished as the up highs stay high and dry. Or just a noisy minority?

I don't see any conspiracy theory. It just looks to me like there happen to be a large number of disputes which have flared up all at the same time.

Certainly the DOO dispute is a specialised industry-specific dispute.

Likewise the various disputes on LU in the last couple of years have focussed on specific issues - e.g. Night Tube, Fit For The Future - Stations, or specific ER issues on particular lines eg the Piccadilly Line.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The government are now spouting a line that the current wave of strikes is just a concerted attempt to bring down the government. Now to me that sounds like looking at them the wrong way

Of course the government would say that, the government we have now are both narcissistic and mendacious enough to actually believe that they have done nothing wrong.

No matter what we think about the RMT, I wouldn't say prison officers, doctors, barristers and solicitors are particularly noted for their Trotskyite tendencies. If you behave reprehensibly enough that you get barristers to go on strike against you, as Chris "failing" Grayling managed, then it's pretty safe to say it is you that are the problem, not the strikers.

 

[PHILIPE]

Open this thread with a statement, this is not about the pros and cons of any of specific strike but more what they could mean (or not).

The government are now spouting a line that the current wave of strikes is just a concerted attempt to bring down the government. Now to me that sounds like looking at them the wrong way. To have ongoing industrial action from ASLEF, RMT, TSSA, CWU, Unite and PPU would indicate to me something else could be going on.

Could this wave of strikes be the start of a movement among a growing number of disenfranchised workers who are well and truly bored of being effectively stomped on from up high? Watching pensions, pay and job security for the masses being demolished as the up highs stay high and dry. Or just a noisy minority?

I don't think it's disfranchised workers themselves but Union Leaders using their power. Why do their leaders invariably seem to be Hard left people who deliberately put themselves forward to fill such posts.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why do their leaders invariably seem to be Hard left people

Because that's what they want you to think.

The last big strike against Grayling was led by the Criminal Bar Association. Nigel Lithman QC may be many things, but a Hard Left Red he is not.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Because that's what they want you to think.

The last big strike against Grayling was led by the Criminal Bar Association. Nigel Lithman QC may be many things, but a Hard Left Red he is not.

Are you really being serious here and whilst the one person that you have named, noting whom he represented, are not all the rest of the bunch "sons and daughters of the scythe, hammer and sickle" in their political leanings who would never be so happy as "to see the red flag flying here"

 

[TheEdge]

Are you really being serious here and whilst the one person that you have named, noting whom he represented, are not all the rest of the bunch "sons and daughters of the scythe, hammer and sickle" in their political leanings who would never be so happy as "to see the red flag flying here"

Of the people I can work with (RMT, ASLEF and TSSA) while there are a handful of people who wouldn't mind the red flag flying the vast majority don't. The vast majority are normal decent working people. Just like so many others in this country who seem to have got the decadent thought into their head that maybe they should be paid fairly and treated decently.

While I don't really want to see the red flag flying I wouldn't mind some sort of control. I wouldn't mind, for example, the wages of directors and very senior managers being directly linked to the average wage of their company.

 

[Qwerty133]

Of the people I can work with (RMT, ASLEF and TSSA) while there are a handful of people who wouldn't mind the red flag flying the vast majority don't. The vast majority are normal decent working people. Just like so many others in this country who seem to have got the decadent thought into their head that maybe they should be paid fairly and treated decently.

While I don't really want to see the red flag flying I wouldn't mind some sort of control. I wouldn't mind, for example, the wages of directors and very senior managers being directly linked to the average wage of their company.

No one is saying that the majority (or even a significant minority) of the frontline workers are rabid lefties, however there is an argument that a high proportion of union management and leaders such as Mick Cash and Len McCluskey are of a left wing persuasion and could be out to bring down the government.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

While I don't really want to see the red flag flying I wouldn't mind some sort of control. I wouldn't mind, for example, the wages of directors and very senior managers being directly linked to the average wage of their company.

Do you think that the railways should be classified as "essential services" on account of the vast numbers of people who use them in order to go and come back from their places of work and therefore made subject to the same strike strictures that so apply in other "essential services".

I agree that the overwhelming majority of union members are not "reds under the bed" but such is the cynically planned co-ordination and manipulation of the trades union movement by those with Socialism of various hues and colouration schemes who stand and are elected to the top echelon of trades unions, that you see the RMT, for example, having its union President making such comments about the subversion of the state as the real aims of an industrial dispute in order to follow a stated agenda of bringing down a democratically elected government as its main priority which then left the General Secretary of the said trades union in the embarrassing position of attempting to refute those words of his union President without casting aspersions of the President of the said union.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

While I don't really want to see the red flag flying I wouldn't mind some sort of control. I wouldn't mind, for example, the wages of directors and very senior managers being directly linked to the average wage of their company.

You appear to echo the feelings of the working people of Poland and other former Warsaw Pact countries against the remuneration of senior state officials in charge of industries and of the carefully state planned control of those industries at that time, but it was only those of Sodinarnosc in Poland who fully gave vent to their feelings about such abuses of power.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Are you really being serious here

As I said, when a government's behaviour has caused barristers, solicitors and doctors to go on strike, it is pretty safe to say that the government and not the trade unionists are the problem.

I know the Daily Heil have tried their best to argue otherwise, bless their little cotton socks, but medics and barristers are not really the sorts of people who are betrothed to the hammer and sickle, are they?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As I said, when a government's behaviour has caused barristers, solicitors and doctors to go on strike, it is pretty safe to say that the government and not the trade unionists are the problem.

I know the Daily Heil have tried their best to argue otherwise, bless their little cotton socks, but medics and barristers are not really the sorts of people who are betrothed to the hammer and sickle, are they?

An elected government has the power to govern.

Why on earth make mention of the newspaper, the name of which that I know not of, in your second paragraph, when the mention of any newspaper was never part of my original posting?

 

[Tetchytyke]

An elected government has the power to govern.

An an employee has the power to withdraw labour if his or her employer is being abusive.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

An an employee has the power to withdraw labour if his or her employer is being abusive.

Who ever said that this was not the case? If, as you say that employer was being abusive to employees, the employee would never want to work for such an employer ever again.

 

[TheEdge]

Who ever said that this was not the case? If, as you say that employer was being abusive to employees, the employee would never want to work for such an employer ever again.

The government are already pushing the idea that strikes should be made (even) harder or illegal in the railways, and by no doubt extension whatever other industry they arbitrarily declare as critical.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Who ever said that this was not the case?

The Transport Secretary, Chris Grayling, is suggesting that railway staff shouldn't be allowed to withhold their labour if they are in dispute with their employer.

Similar arguments have been used about doctors, nurses, firefighters and even barristers in recent years.

Funny how these people are not "essential" enough to be given a cost of living pay increase...

 

[FordFocus]

The fact that doctors, lawyers, firefighters, prison officers, railway workers, factory workers, parcel delivery, pilots, postal workers and cabin crew in recent years have balloted for industrial action suggests to me there is nothing coordinated or political. These professions can be vastly different with it's members having different political views.

I think the public opinion is changing now albeit slowly. The UK wages have gone the wrong direction to many other EU countries. People are sick of not having a pay rise, even the more moderate unions who traditionally don't rock the boat have balloted for action. Large employers are in the spotlight for the poor staff treatment like Sports Direct, BHS (pensions), Amazon, Uber and Deliveroo. Fixed term contracts and zero hours has caused a lot of uncertainty for people. The government hasn't addressed it apart from rebadging the minimum wage to a "living wage" and bumping it up a little.

2017 is going to be make or break time for Theresa May and I think banning strikes for more industries is not going to be seriously on her agenda, no matter how much selected Tory MPs want it. She's got to get most of her party onboard with Brexit and the pressure is building.

 

[TheEdge]

Well would you look at that, first Argos, now Swissport, strikes where HMG have not got their hand in the pie have been suspended. Its as if a pattern is emerging.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The fact that doctors, lawyers, firefighters, prison officers, railway workers, factory workers, parcel delivery, pilots, postal workers and cabin crew in recent years have balloted for industrial action suggests to me there is nothing coordinated or political. These professions can be vastly different with it's members having different political views.

The fact that all those differing groups of disparate workers have acted as such in such a co-ordinated manner clearly shows that there is in fact a co-ordinated politically motivated campaign and coupled to the sudden rise to power of the Momentum grouping within the ranks of the Labour Party, should anyone with a knowledge of how similar matters some forty years ago came to pass would see this for exactly what it is.

It takes people like Sean Hoyle to at least be truthful on exactly where their stance and aims lie in terms of an aspiration for group trades union action with the aim of a Socialist utopian agenda to run Britain in a way that suits their own ends.

 

[AlterEgo]

The fact that all those differing groups of disparate workers have acted as such in such a co-ordinated manner clearly shows that there is in fact a co-ordinated politically motivated campaign and coupled to the sudden rise to power of the Momentum grouping within the ranks of the Labour Party, should anyone with a knowledge of how similar matters some forty years ago came to pass would see this for exactly what it is.

It takes people like Sean Hoyle to at least be truthful on exactly where their stance and aims lie in terms of an aspiration for group trades union action with the aim of a Socialist utopian agenda to run Britain in a way that suits their own ends.

Right, so the barristers strike was political and happened because of Momentum?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The doctors and the solicitors all love Momentum too

 

[AlterEgo]

The doctors and the solicitors all love Momentum too

And Warsaw Pact socialism, etc etc. Rinse and repeat.

 

[FordFocus]

The fact that all those differing groups of disparate workers have acted as such in such a co-ordinated manner clearly shows that there is in fact a co-ordinated politically motivated campaign and coupled to the sudden rise to power of the Momentum grouping within the ranks of the Labour Party, should anyone with a knowledge of how similar matters some forty years ago came to pass would see this for exactly what it is.

It takes people like Sean Hoyle to at least be truthful on exactly where their stance and aims lie in terms of an aspiration for group trades union action with the aim of a Socialist utopian agenda to run Britain in a way that suits their own ends.

God bless you Paul, while I wasn't around 40 years ago trade unionism has changed quite a bit. There are quite a few members in my union who openly said they either voted UKIP or the Tories, the well know socialist parties that openly love unions. Long gone are the days of having a vote for strike action in the factory car park on a fag break or been bullied into voting by the shop steward. I'm fairly sure the BMA doesn't back momentum or have much of an opinion of Corbyn. Same applies for those barristers.

I'm definitely no fan of this government, I feel many of the front bench are inept at their jobs that even staunch supporters of the right are asking questions. There is too much infighting over Brexit, the continuing support for large corporations tax cuts in the meanwhile public service spending is now at 1940s levels. When the poor or the "Jams" are struggling to have any form of disposable income. The increasing cost of living especially with housing rental prices going through the roof (poor pun I know). The deflated wages and contracts across the country. I don't believe it's the job of trade unions to get involved in everyday politics, that's the oppositions job. They should only get involved when government policy may harm the union's industry or members conditions and pay.

Sean Hoyle along with certain members of the higher RMT committee have some strange views that I would say the majority of members wouldn't agree with. They don't sacrifice pay just for one mans agenda against the government. If I was still in the RMT I would be screaming for answers at the next local branch meeting of why he's just undermined an argument over railway safety with stupid comments like that.

 

[bb21]

The fact that all those differing groups of disparate workers have acted as such in such a co-ordinated manner clearly shows that there is in fact a co-ordinated politically motivated campaign and coupled to the sudden rise to power of the Momentum grouping within the ranks of the Labour Party, should anyone with a knowledge of how similar matters some forty years ago came to pass would see this for exactly what it is.

The world has moved on in the last forty years, Paul.

It takes people like Sean Hoyle to at least be truthful on exactly where their stance and aims lie in terms of an aspiration for group trades union action with the aim of a Socialist utopian agenda to run Britain in a way that suits their own ends.

I don't think there is any danger of that happening.

There is of course a problem, however the solution is not simple. We are struggling to compete on the world stage, and the government has much bigger problems in its hands created unnecessarily by itself. The Tory party (and indeed, Labour, plus most others) can ill-afford to anger those well off right now.

The future is pretty bleak for those at the bottom of the ladder, unfortunately.

 

[Starmill]

An elected government has the power to govern.

Elected Government? The Governing Party recieved the approval of only 11,334,920 out of 46,425,386 prospective voters - and only a 36.9% vote share. The least representative parliament ever, and despite that that one of the slimmest Government majorities in modern times. Elected just about, and therefore unsurprising that there is majority opposition to many of their policies, even if the official opposition can't be bothered to recognise that and act on it. In fact, I think these strikes are part of the consequences of them failing to do that.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Elected Government? The Governing Party recieved the approval of only 11,334,920 out of 46,425,386 prospective voters - and only a 36.9% vote share. The least representative parliament ever, and despite that that one of the slimmest Government majorities in modern times. Elected just about, and therefore unsurprising that there is majority opposition to many of their policies, even if the official opposition can't be bothered to recognise that and act on it. In fact, I think these strikes are part of the consequences of them failing to do that.

I cannot let this "old chestnut" pass without making comment that the said matter has been laboured-over countless times on numerous threads on this website over the last few years. The electoral system in its current guise, after recent attempts to bring about change, is still FPTP and all the heart-wrenching, wailing and gnashing of teeth makes no difference whatsoever to the status quo that now prevails. I noticed that you still tried to make the assumption that the entirety of the opposition to Government policy has some strange numerical hark-back to this matter.

You may have a comparative matter in the USA also in mind, where despite Clinton actually polling more votes in number than Trump in the last Presidential election, the Electoral College took no notice whatsoever of the last-ditch attempts to change their mind.

So let all this British electoral angst pass and not be resurrected ad infinitum, as in the words of the old song, which those of my age group will be aware of are.."Que sera, sera" (What will be, will be).

Here endeth the lesson for the fourth week of Advent.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The world has moved on in the last forty years, Paul.

But not apparently in the views of the Momentum movement and more especially in the mind of the "Glorious Leader" who currently is in charge of the Labour Party....

 

[NSEFAN]

But not apparently in the views of the Momentum movement and more especially in the mind of the "Glorious Leader" who currently is in charge of the Labour Party....

They may be naive, but dismissing and patronising the disillusioned voters results in them turning to alternatives. Surely you can see why people, especially young people, are turning towards such ideologies? With ongoing negativity in the form of a Conservative government cutting services and Brexit now on the way, I can see why people feel that the UK is turning into a corporate dystopia, and therefore turn to ideas about helping everyone and fairer treatment. Indeed it was inequality that created the trade union and socialist movements in the first place!

 

[bb21]

But not apparently in the views of the Momentum movement and more especially in the mind of the "Glorious Leader" who currently is in charge of the Labour Party....

Oh, Paul. No one takes them seriously, except their most hardened supporters.