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Strictly speaking, what does an e-ticket require?

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Egg Centric

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What are the minimum components to an e-ticket for it to be valid for travel? Is an Aztec code sufficient? Aztec + all the human readable parts? Aztec plus some subset of the latter? Other?

What about the dimensions? Are there a min and max? It clearly doesn't have to be on paper given that screens are acceptable, but is any medium ok? What about colours?

I know there's a spec for what the ticket retailer should produce since @Adam Williams has mentioned it, but doubt it's the same spec for what's acceptable from a passenger (maybe it is?) and I'm not sure where to find the latter.
 
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Tazi Hupefi

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The barcode needs to be scannable.

The ticket also needs to be readable by humans without a barcode scanner, and should therefore be in the correct PDF or mobile wallet format.

It would also breach the National Rail Conditions of Travel and void the ticket entirely if any of those were altered or amended, for whatever reason, leaving you open to prosecution or a Penalty Fare etc.

4.7 You should not tamper with a Ticket in any way. If you do so it will not be valid for travel.
 

crablab

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I've written previously on this topic. There doesn't seem to be one.
From NRCoT:
"Ticket" means any physical or electronic document or record which
entitles a passenger to make a journey on the National Rail
Network between the stations or within the zones indicated by
one or more of the Train Companies. An electronic document
or record may consist of (but not be limited to):
- a Smartcard (including an Oyster or ITSO card);
- a payment card or identity card;
- a mobile telephone or tablet device;
- other mobile electronic device; or
- a database, in conjunction with an authorised Contactless Bank
Card bearing the symbol described in the notices and
publications of the Train Company as being valid for travel on
their services.
Electronic documents or records may not display the same
information as printed Tickets but the conditions for use of
these will explain where this information can be found.
SWR and GWR (for example) both have terms and conditions which relate to e-tickets, but those would only apply to tickets retailed by them presumably.

In practice, as long as they can be scanned that seems to constitute valid. And since, unlike CCST, they are uniquely identifiable, contain a signed blob of data that can be validated & trusted (if you have the correct set of public keys), and are backed by an industry database with all the metadata, the information printed alongside is irrelevant.
should therefore be in the correct PDF or mobile wallet format.
Which industry document is this cited from? What is the "correct" format?

I think this would be very difficult to enforce, since the rendering of the ticket is entirely dependent on the customer's device. If Apple decide to change the way they display e-tickets there's not a lot the customer can do...

I previously used to extract .pkpass from some retailers and convert it to Google Pay (as it was at the time). That could result in 'weird' looking tickets, but the Aztec was valid.
 
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Tazi Hupefi

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I've written previously on this topic. There doesn't seem to be one.
From NRCoT:


SWR and GWR (for example) both have terms and conditions which relate to e-tickets, but those would only apply to tickets retailed by them presumably.

In practice, as long as they can be scanned that seems to constitute valid. And since, unlike CCST, they are uniquely identifiable, contain a signed blob of data that can be validated & trusted (if you have the correct set of public keys), and are backed by an industry database with all the metadata, the information printed alongside is irrelevant.

Which industry document is this cited from? What is the "correct" format?

I think this would be very difficult to enforce, since the rendering of the ticket is entirely dependent on the customer's device. If Apple decide to change the way they display e-tickets, or break their Aztec implementation, there's not a lot the customer can do...

I previously used to extract .pkpass from some retailers and convert it to Google Pay (as it was at the time). That could result in 'weird' looking tickets, but the Aztec was valid.
As above, the NRCoT states that a ticket can't be tampered with, which generally has the meaning can't be interfered with. It also says this must not happen IN ANY WAY.

Anyone that starts messing around extracting elements from the official files and converting (and transforming) to other formats etc may well get away with it, so long as the barcode can still be scanned, and the format does not look completely wrong to a human - but it would be highly inadvisable to do so. If the Aztec code was not able to be scanned as a result, and a revenue inspector took an interest, it would be more trouble than it's worth.
 

crablab

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What an "official" reply.

.pkpass is a public specification (it's actually just a .zip with various files inside). Who's to say what the correct rendering of that is?

Likewise a PDF, which is an incredibly complicated file format, will render differently depending on exactly which particular piece of software is used. Who's to say which open source PDF renderers are acceptable?

If it's not printed by the railway on controlled ticket stock, instead relying on the myriad of different ways a customer can present the ticket, then they're going to have a hard time arguing about "interference".

The railway doesn't have a monopoly on open standards and how they are implemented. If they don't like that, they can come up with their own document format (just like they have for the data inside the Aztec, which does not use UIC-918.3) and work on getting everyone else to adopt it. Good luck.
 
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Adam Williams

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The reality is that there's a lot more pragmatism applied in the real world than some of the posts here might suggest.

A great example: To the best of my knowledge, the in-app rendering of an E-Ticket that Trainline implement does not comply with or form the basis of any specific RDG specification. There simply is no "in-app E-Ticket display" standard. There is a spec for displaying an mTicket, but that has a different set of requirements. They've obviously made sure it's close to the PDF display requirements and it follows the spirit of these guidelines fairly well, but to an extent they've just gone and done their own thing:

Screenshot_20240913-021315~2.jpg
Has it been looked at by an accreditation analyst? Most likely. But the spec hasn't changed as a result of that.

If you're going to say that any ticket presented outwith the "official" display formats set out in the RSPS specifications is invalid, then you've suddenly criminalised every person using Trainline to purchase their tickets and you imply their tickets aren't valid unless they're open in Google/Apple Wallet. That would be nonsensical.



The reality for a passenger is that if it looks "good enough" with respect to the details shown, it's orange and it scans (i.e. you've not somehow failed to render the Aztec barcode properly), you're probably going to be fine. All the PDFs are going to be subtly different anyway by virtue of there being about a dozen different implementations using different technologies - some look very much like the engineer responsible has simply thrown the elements onto the page and taken very little care in lining up the different parts of the E-Ticket header, for example! Other TIS suppliers have decided they can't be bothered to render a visual itinerary diagram, and the spec does make some allowances for differences like this. If you print the E-Ticket, it's very possible that it'll be altered during this process as well as part of the process of optimising it for print.

If it doesn't scan or the member of staff has decided that scanning tickets is not a task they want to carry out, passengers should expect there to be more scrutiny of the human-readable parts of the ticket. I would hope that a passenger would be given the benefit of the doubt here - ideally if the unique ticket number is visible and there was some ambiguity over whether the ticket was legitimate or not because of how it looked, a revenue inspector would make a note of the details and arrange for the retailer to be contacted to double check if the ticket was actually issued or not, and to discuss why the ticket didn't look legitimate.

Customers should be slightly careful with some of the alternative PKPass rendering apps available on Android, we've seen cases where one of the apps has managed to completely screw up rendering the Aztec barcode, which leaves it unscannable. If you're going to stray off the beaten path here you need to be completely sure of what you're doing and double check it is working as you'd expect, but ultimately one of the benefits of the E-Ticket system is supposed to be that the security is provided by the barcode, its payload and the ticket validation systems that exist in the background. There are more important things the industry ought to be concerned about than how exactly Joe Bloggs presents that ticket, provided it was legitimately purchased from an accredited retailer.

The above only applies to E-Tickets. Digital Railcards, mTickets and a few other product fulfilment types have a significantly different security model.
 
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crablab

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Thanks @Adam Williams for the detailed insight :)
If it doesn't scan or the member of staff has decided that scanning tickets is not a task they want to carry out, passengers should expect there to be more scrutiny of the human-readable parts of the ticket.
This is the bit I find slightly questionable. If we've gone to the bother of issuing tickets that have a signed payload, can be validated offline and which have an online scan history, I don't think scrutiny of the human readable components is really in order. They should not form part of the ticket.

They are largely there for the passengers benefit in disambiguating tickets & knowing their itinerary.

The "ticket" is the Aztec data which is standardised, does have an "official" format (which isn't published) and cannot be altered by anyone without the private key.

I understand from the Disputes section people have done some photoshopping and tried to reuse e-tickets by presenting an Aztec (perhaps slightly corrupted ones, like Adam's above) with different journey details alongside. That's obviously a deliberate misrepresentation but is easily detected. There would still be no valid ticket if they presented an invalid or expired Aztec.

As a side note, the industry should be required to publish the standard for the e-ticket payload & the public keys to validate them. One of the things on my list when RSP hopefully moves into the purview of a public body. (If you know where to look, this has largely been reverse engineered).
 
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Adam Williams

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Thanks @Adam Williams for the detailed insight :)

This is the bit I find slightly questionable. If we've gone to the bother of issuing tickets that have a signed payload, can be validated offline and which have an online scan history, I don't think scrutiny of the human readable components is really in order. They should not form part of the ticket.
I think being able to give passengers the benefit of the doubt by having the fallback is important, though. There are some reasons why a legitimate barcode may not scan. I've seen key distribution issues, often not the retailer's fault, which have meant the handheld validators have been unable to read the details of an E-Ticket. Sometimes the operator is relying on camera based scanning, and the camera simply won't focus on the barcode properly. These things obviously shouldn't be happening every day (and there should be further investigation happening in the background when these problems do occur), but there is some valid reasoning behind the ticket being more than just the barcode.

What I would also say - and particularly if you've looked in any real detail at the Rust crate you refer to in your post, this should be quite evident - the barcode payload has its limitations. There's only so much data you can pack into the payload and as a result there are some pieces of data that will have to form part of the human-readable parts of the ticket instead. They're not crucial for the security of the system but they can provide useful additional context to a member of staff.
 

kkong

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This is the bit I find slightly questionable. If we've gone to the bother of issuing tickets that have a signed payload, can be validated offline and which have an online scan history, I don't think scrutiny of the human readable components is really in order. They should not form part of the ticket.

Based on my recent observations, TPE guards don't want to / don't have the ability to scan e-tickets, so they just look at them and say "that's fine" or whatever.
 

Haywain

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Based on my recent observations, TPE guards don't want to / don't have the ability to scan e-tickets, so they just look at them and say "that's fine" or whatever.
They certainly have the ability, as I have had eTickets scanned on TPE services.
 

Tazi Hupefi

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Based on my recent observations, TPE guards don't want to / don't have the ability to scan e-tickets, so they just look at them and say "that's fine" or whatever.
They can scan, and do scan, so long as they're not conductors (so stations, revenue protection etc). The issue is that they want tuppence per scan / "new technology" payment/allowance to replace the ticket sales commission which has reduced as people buy online.
 

kkong

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They can scan, and do scan, so long as they're not conductors (so stations, revenue protection etc). The issue is that they want tuppence per scan / "new technology" payment/allowance to replace the ticket sales commission which has reduced as people buy online.

My observations related to on-board staff - so guards / conductors or whatever they are called.
 

Egg Centric

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So is there anything about the medium the pdf has to be printed to?

Confession of my use case: For fun, I am thinking about making cakes with real e-tickets on using a service like eat your photo. Not as a commercial venture* obviously - just to see if it gets accepted on a journey.

*Although if the forum site wants to steal my idea and introduce a "fulfill to cake" option then be my guest!
 

MrJeeves

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*Although if the forum site wants to steal my idea and introduce a "fulfill to cake" option then be my guest!
Instead of share of savings, would you instead get it delivered with a slice of the cake missing? :p
 

yorkie

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Based on my recent observations, TPE guards don't want to / don't have the ability to scan e-tickets, so they just look at them and say "that's fine" or whatever.
It was the case that most Guards did not scan, though a few did, however my most recent observations is that if the Guard checks tickets, then they generally do scan now. Most of my most recent TPE ticket checks, since the dispute ended, have not had ticket checks, but where ticket checks have taken place, a scan has too.
They can scan, and do scan, so long as they're not conductors (so stations, revenue protection etc). The issue is that they want tuppence per scan / "new technology" payment/allowance to replace the ticket sales commission which has reduced as people buy online.
This is a few months out of date now.
 

Starmill

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So is there anything about the medium the pdf has to be printed to?

Confession of my use case: For fun, I am thinking about making cakes with real e-tickets on using a service like eat your photo. Not as a commercial venture* obviously - just to see if it gets accepted on a journey.

*Although if the forum site wants to steal my idea and introduce a "fulfill to cake" option then be my guest!
Looks like the resolution could be capable of being good enough, and as such capable of being scanned.

A cake might not be possible to present to a ticket gate, however, without risk of dropping it.

You'd have to make sure that whatever happened the surface of the cake didn't become damaged too, or obviously hold a back up.
 

Adam Williams

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If it needs to be held upside down to satisfy the gates, a cupcake could be a more versatile choice, assuming the edible ink printer can do enough dots per index.

This would also better support split ticketing use-cases, multiple cupcakes can be baked in a tray, one for each distinct ticket.
 

ainsworth74

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So is there anything about the medium the pdf has to be printed to?

Confession of my use case: For fun, I am thinking about making cakes with real e-tickets on using a service like eat your photo. Not as a commercial venture* obviously - just to see if it gets accepted on a journey.

*Although if the forum site wants to steal my idea and introduce a "fulfill to cake" option then be my guest!
You of course realise that both a trip report and a cake review will be required if you do this yes?


This would also better support split ticketing use-cases, multiple cupcakes can be baked in a tray, one for each distinct ticket.
Don't encourage him :lol:
 

Egg Centric

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You of course realise that both a trip report and a cake review will be required if you do this yes?

Yessir (although I also still have one to write up of a borders walk, where iirc half of us were - somewhat ironically given they were destined for meat - mercilessly slaughtered by a herd of angry cattle, although Yorkie's memory will be less hazy than mine)

Honestly I don't even like cake really. I just can't think of an easy way of getting it on a sausage roll.
 
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