Streamlining TPE services?

[MattRat]

Now as we know, TPE has a lot of problems getting staff to run the current services. While more staff could sort the problem (as well as allowing them to work longer journeys), like with what is happening with Avanti, it seems more clear everyday that the DFT simply aren't going to authorize that for TPE.

However, given the rumours about XC, it does seem they would be more than happy to cut back services for an operator, which could also theoretically solve the problem (staff could do the shorter journeys, as well as requiring less staff in general).

The question then is, how would you go about cutting TPE services to achieve the desired outcome?

 

[Metroman62]

Make Scarborough / York a contained shuttle not having to rely on through services

 

[pdq]

Could the slow, all stops Leeds - Huddersfield - Manchester services be transferred back to Northern? Would that make any difference to the big picture?

 

[yoyothehobo]

I would go one further and strip the Scarborough - York service and give that to Northern and run it as a shuttle.

As above the TP stopper i would give to Northern. (all dependent on them having staff for it i suppose)

Cut the Manchester - Edinburgh services back to Newcastle with Scotrail possibly taking over the stops at Reston and Berwick.

And an outside suggestion, cut Cleethorpes services back to Scunthorpe.

Some quite radical suggestions there and not sure how much it would actually save

 

[L+Y]

For a real hack down, maybe cut down to as little as 3tph through the core, all diagrammed for 802/mk5 LCHS to ensure a decent train length, all stopping at Stalybridge, Huddersfield and Dewsbury. All concentrated to Victoria. Take up the option to upgrade Mk5 rakes to 7 coaches that I believe was talked about in the past couple of years.

Maybe 2 of these to run on to Liverpool, and one to the Airport? In the East, 1tph to each of Hull, Newcastle and Saltburn?

Supplement with hourly (half hourly?) 6 car 185 stoppers Leeds-Huddersfield and Piccadilly-Huddersfield- the Leeds one possibly extending through to Scarborough.

I caveat that these are uninformed opinions, but I have travelled on the route once or twice a month, until recently. Unreliability has forced me into the car or the Copy Pit/Calder valley routes with Northern instead. It seems to me that TPE need to focus on getting their bread and butter Manchester-Leeds running sustainably, and then gradually build out from there.

 

[py_megapixel]

I should remind people suggesting shifting routes to other TOCs that when Northern had their troubles a few years ago it wasn't that uncommon on here to hear suggestions about transferring bits of their operation to TPE!

 

[Iskra]

I would go one further and strip the Scarborough - York service and give that to Northern and run it as a shuttle.

As above the TP stopper i would give to Northern. (all dependent on them having staff for it i suppose)

Cut the Manchester - Edinburgh services back to Newcastle with Scotrail possibly taking over the stops at Reston and Berwick.

And an outside suggestion, cut Cleethorpes services back to Scunthorpe.

Some quite radical suggestions there and not sure how much it would actually save

I agree about moving the Manchester-Huddersfield stopper and York-Scarborough services mentioned to Northern, but the highlighted suggestion would leave no service beyond Scunthorpe until Barnetby, cutting Grimsby and Cleethorpes off from ECML connections too. Perhaps terminate TPE at Doncaster from Manchester and Northern could run Doncaster-Cleethorpes instead as an extension of their current service from Doncaster to Scunthorpe?

 

[yoyothehobo]

I agree about moving the Manchester-Huddersfield stopper and York-Scarborough services mentioned to Northern, but the highlighted suggestion would leave no service beyond Scunthorpe until Barnetby, cutting Grimsby and Cleethorpes off from ECML connections too. Perhaps terminate TPE at Doncaster from Manchester and Northern could run Doncaster-Cleethorpes instead as an extension of their current service from Doncaster to Scunthorpe?

I was considering that as a suggestion, i just am unfamiliar with what else runs over beyond Doncaster.

 

[Neptune]

I should remind people suggesting shifting routes to other TOCs that when Northern had their troubles a few years ago it wasn't that uncommon on here to hear suggestions about transferring bits of their operation to TPE!

It’s highly fashionable for people on here to slate Northern based in the main on the previous franchise holder(s). In fact most naysayers have probably never travelled on Northern or did so on a clapped out, leaking, bus seat pacer in 2008.

But despite everything they are outperforming the more fashionable ‘glamour’ TOC’s in the North at this present time thanks in the main to the reset provided when OLR took over in 2020. The undeliverable promises by the previous incumbent were put to bed and a more realistic post covid operation is now the norm. The services cut back in the May 23 tt should return in Dec 23 if not before for instance. They’re just being shuffled at the moment to make a more reliable timetable just as people are suggesting TPE should do. There are still problems of course as there always will be but having worked for the railway since the days of Regional Railways I can honestly say hand on heart that things are better with the company (east side in my case) than at any other time in the past 30 years. I feel a realistic direction never felt before. Yes there are IR issues but they are outside of Northern’s scope.

Putting it bluntly, if Northern encompass TPE it won’t be the flea pit that people on here would love everyone to believe. There’s no reason why the TPE brand would not just become a premium sub-brand of Northern. GWR, Scotrail, TfW, EMR, GA. All companies that run a mix of suburban and intercity services. Why shouldn’t Northern be added to that list.

 

[MattRat]

I should remind people suggesting shifting routes to other TOCs that when Northern had their troubles a few years ago it wasn't that uncommon on here to hear suggestions about transferring bits of their operation to TPE!

Almost as if the problems aren't TOC specific. That's actually why the thread is the way it is. It's about looking into a solution the DFT would hopefully back, as it involves cuts rather than expansions (including staff expansions).

Not what people necessarily want, but it seems to me that it's either this or the current 'setup', and IMO, anything would be better than the current 'setup'.

 

[Manutd1999]

Cut it back to the absolute bare bones:

1ph Liverpool - Newcastle
1ph Liverpool - Doncaster
1ph Manchester - Hull
1ph Manchester - Scotland

York - Middlesborough, York - Scarborough and Doncaster - Cleethorpes then operate as hourly shuttles, timed for connections. Transfer the Manchester - Hudds and Hudds - Leeds stoppers to Northern.


It should be fairly straight-forward to get that bare minimum established as a reliable service. Additional services can then be added as and when there are sufficient resources available.

 

[nr758123]

Could the slow, all stops Leeds - Huddersfield - Manchester services be transferred back to Northern? Would that make any difference to the big picture?

the TP stopper i would give to Northern. (all dependent on them having staff for it i suppose)

Would that be dependent on Northern crews being trained on Class 195s on the route?

 

[Neptune]

Would that be dependent on Northern crews being trained on Class 195s on the route?

If the stoppers came back to Northern the issue wouldn’t necessarily be the traction but lapsed route knowledge, especially on the Stalybridge - Huddersfield portion. Less so on the Leeds - Huddersfield side although there are gaps in route knowledge at Leeds depot now.