Stratford London to Diss - any permitted route

[trebor79]

I need to go to London overnight later this week. Due to the times I need to travel and uncertainties over return time, it's be a standard open return from Diss to Stratford London at £100.

Coming back the following day, it may be more convenient for me to travel from or via Liverpool Street.

Is an "Any permitted route" ticket valid for returning either from or via Liverpool Street?

I looked on the national routing guide which was useless, it informed me the ticket is valid via Stowmarket but not valid via Norwich.

A Diss to London Liverpool Street return is also priced at £100. Would I be right onto joining therefore that the return portion of my Diss to Stratford ticket is valid for travelling from or via Liverpool Street?

How does the industry expect the lay public to determine what "any permitted route" actually means?

 

[Hadders]

Purchase a Diss - London ticket and finish short at Stratford. This is perfectly allowed.

What you can't do is travel from Liverpool Street with a Diss - Stratford ticket as you wouldn't have a ticket between Liverpool Street and Stratford, even though the price is the same.

 

[Royston Vasey]

If you’ve already bought the ticket then you can buy an overdistance excess from the DIS-SRA open return to a DIS-LST open return at a ticket office which if the prices are identical will be a zero charge. You may need to find a particularly knowledgeable and experienced clerk

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I need to go to London overnight later this week. Due to the times I need to travel and uncertainties over return time, it's be a standard open return from Diss to Stratford London at £100.

There are definitely cheaper tickets available to do that journey, even with just one through ticket.

Is an "Any permitted route" ticket valid for returning either from or via Liverpool Street?

Yes, as that is a mapped route (and none of the tickets are routed "not via London" or similar).

I looked on the national routing guide which was useless, it informed me the ticket is valid via Stowmarket but not valid via Norwich.

The Routeing Point Calculator will be telling you that you can use the mapped routes from Stratford to Stowmarket, and not Stratford to Norwich. It makes sense geographically! The mapped route for Stratford to Stowmarket include via London on page 1886 of the Yellow Pages which show you the mapped routes for a specific combination of Routeing Points.

A Diss to London Liverpool Street return is also priced at £100. Would I be right onto joining therefore that the return portion of my Diss to Stratford ticket is valid for travelling from or via Liverpool Street?

The price of the ticket to Liverpool Street is actually irrelevant for this purpose - though in other cases the price of other routes of tickets, or the price of intermediate or longer-distance tickets may be relevant (e.g. in the case of selecting appropriate Routeing Points as the Routeing Point Calculator does).

How does the industry expect the lay public to determine what "any permitted route" actually means?

The easiest way is simply to use National Rail Enquiries. If it passes a given route as being doable with one through ticket then it is a valid route for that ticket (or at least, it must be accepted as such, even if it is erroneously offered). Obviously National Rail Enquiries does not pass all valid routes, as some can be very circuitous indeed, but it is a good approximation of validity (and a screenshot of NRE should be accepted in the case of any disputed routeing).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If you’ve already bought the ticket then you can buy an overdistance excess from the DIS-SRA open return to a DIS-LST open return at a ticket office which if the prices are identical will be a zero charge. You may need to find a particularly knowledgeable and experienced clerk

That is not really advantageous - the DIS-LST ticket is not valid for the double back to SRA, which the DIS-SRA ticket is for the exact same price.

 

[trebor79]

Ah ok, sounds like Diss to Stratford ticket will provide what I need. Likely the return journey will start at Stratford but I'd rather change at Liverpool Street than elsewhere.
I didn't think a Diss to Liverpool Street ticket would be valid for alighting at Stratford. Technically finishing shirt isn't allowed, is it? Would the barriers at Stratford have let me out?

I understand a bit more about how to use the routing guide now too .

Thanks

 

[trebor79]

Ps I don't find the national rail website helpful. It still just tells me that the ticket is valid on any permitted route.

 

[kieron]

What you can't do is travel from Liverpool Street with a Diss - Stratford ticket as you wouldn't have a ticket between Liverpool Street and Stratford, even though the price is the same.

Just to say, I cannot confirm the accuracy of the above statement.

For a Diss-Stratford anytime return:
Diss is associated with Norwich and Stowmarket.
Diss-Stratford has a NFM64 SOS of 2350.
Stowmarket-Stratford has a NFM64 SOS of 2050 (so Stowmarket is a valid routeing point).
Norwich-Stratford has a NMF64 SOS of 3100 (so Norwich is not a valid routeing point).
Stratford is part of the Stratford Group routeing point, so that is a valid routeing point.

Stowmarket-Stratford is valid on map combinations EA and LONDON.

LONDON means that you can use a valid map combination for the route from Stowmarket to London, followed by a valid map combination for the one from London to Stratford, the only restriction being that you cannot repeat a map.

Stowmarket-London is valid on map EA.
London-Stratford is valid on maps HS and LI.

EA allows travel to London via Ipswich and Stratford, but not via Cambridge.
HS and LI each allow any journey from London Group to Stratford Group which doesn't go through another routeing point (such as Highbury & Islington) on the way.

There is an easement (600069) which says you cannot travel via St Pancras and Stratford International with a ticket to Stratford, but I can't see anything else which is relevant.

This means that Diss-Stowmarket-Ipswich-Stratford-London Liverpool Street-Stratford is a valid route from Diss to Stratford. As it happens, nationalrail.co.uk* also shows it as a valid route.

* You may need to delete any nationalrail.co.uk cookies you have for this to load correctly

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Ps I don't find the national rail website helpful. It still just tells me that the ticket is valid on any permitted route.

Have you tried using the journey planner to see if it will suggest a Stratford-Diss ticket for an itinerary via Liverpool Street (as Kieron's link above shows)?

 

[Royston Vasey]

That is not really advantageous - the DIS-LST ticket is not valid for the double back to SRA, which the DIS-SRA ticket is for the exact same price.

But he could legally finish short and not use the excess availability in that direction. He would still effectively hold a return to Liverpool St? Moot point considering the posts since mine anyway

 

[Royston Vasey]

I didn't think a Diss to Liverpool Street ticket would be valid for alighting at Stratford. Technically finishing shirt isn't allowed, is it? Would the barriers at Stratford have let me out?

The barrier question isn't necessarily the same, but finishing short is fine on most if not all flexible tickets. There may be exceptions

 

[trebor79]

Ah yes if I specify via LST on the national rail planner it does indeed confirm validity.
Still, it's a bit long winded.

So my understanding of all of this is that a Diss to Stratford return will give me the flexibility that I require.
I'm not sure it can be done more cheaply than £100 given I have to use a peak train into Stratford and don't know which service I shall be returning on Thursday. It also appears I will now need to break my journey hom eat Ipswich and take a detour to Bury St Edmunds. I can do that on an open return and additional Ipswich to Bury return.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Ah yes if I specify via LST on the national rail planner it does indeed confirm validity.
Still, it's a bit long winded.

So my understanding of all of this is that a Diss to Stratford return will give me the flexibility that I require.
I'm not sure it can be done more cheaply than £100 given I have to use a peak train into Stratford and don't know which service I shall be returning on Thursday. It also appears I will now need to break my journey hom eat Ipswich and take a detour to Bury St Edmunds. I can do that on an open return and additional Ipswich to Bury return.

There are certainly cheaper tickets than £100. Not massively cheaper given you are returning on a different day, but still a reasonable saving. However, whilst entirely valid, not all barriers and barrier attendants might recognise the validity. You have to be careful about how you share these kinds of tickets, too.

 

[trebor79]

Nope. Definitely nothing cheaper showing on Raileasy, not unless I want to get to Stratford several hours before I need to and select a specific return train.

 

[js517]

As a former resident of Diss, I can confirm that Diss to Stratford return (flexible tickets, peak time, no additional stops) can be done for around £60.

 

[trebor79]

One way perhaps.
Return is £100.

Or perhaps let us into the secret?

I am aware of a fare anomaly from another local station to London, so I'm guessing it involves booking a ticket to somewhere else?

 

[Sleepy]

On your return to Ipswich then Bury St Ed. you would be able to purchase a Stowmarket to Bury ticket as all services call at Stowmarket (where your ticket from London is valid to)

 

[kieron]

It also appears I will now need to break my journey hom eat Ipswich and take a detour to Bury St Edmunds. I can do that on an open return and additional Ipswich to Bury return.

A Diss-Stratford ticket wouldn't be valid to Bury St Edmunds, but a Diss-Hitchin one would.

One option which may work for you is to buy a Diss-Hitchin "not via London" off peak return for £31, and get an excess for the outbound portion to an "+any permitted" anytime ticket. This should cost an extra £47.90.

This ticket would allow you to travel directly into London on day 1, make 1 Underground journey at some point, and travel from Kings Cross to Bury St. Edmunds on day 2 via Cambridge.

So the outward part of the journey would involve a route something like this*, and the return something like this.

As the ticket is to Hitchin, you wouldn't be able to catch a non-stop London-Cambridge train.

And, as this is using an off peak ticket for the return, the first train northbound train you can catch is the 08:33 to Leeds, changing at Stevenage and Cambridge to reach Bury St Edmunds at 10:26.

If you do need to travel in and out of London more than once, Oyster/contactless would probably be the cheapest way to do it.

This probably isn't the cheapest way to do things, but it may be worth considering.

* You may need to delete any nationalrail.co.uk cookies you have for these links to open correctly.

 

[trebor79]

That is a very inventive solution! How does one even go about finding such ticketing options, other than having an encyclopaedic knowledge?
How do I purchase the excess for the outbound portion? Can it be done online or do I have to go to a ticket office and hope the clerk knows more about ticketing than I do (I never knew such a thing existed).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

That is a very inventive solution! How does one even go about finding such ticketing options, other than having an encyclopaedic knowledge?
How do I purchase the excess for the outbound portion? Can it be done online or do I have to go to a ticket office and hope the clerk knows more about ticketing than I do (I never knew such a thing existed).

You can't purchase an excess online (ok, certain types of tickets such as Boundary Zone tickets could be said to be excess tickets but that's stretching a point IMO!). You have to obtain it at a ticket office or onboard. There is no penalty for obtaining it onboard - if you manage to get through the barriers without your excess!

Clerks should be aware of how to process excesses but some are unfortunately less well trained than others. If you are struggling to find a ticket office that will give you the excess I am sure we can make some recommendations.

Examples like this are generally found by trial and error (and then sharing any good value fares found). Alternatively it is possible to use the open-source data published on the Rail Delivery Group's website to analyse fares and try and identify anomalous or advantageous fares.

You may be interested in the Fares Workshops run by the forum to find out more about this kind of thing. There are Fares Workshops all around the country at frequent intervals.

 

[kieron]

That is a very inventive solution! How does one even go about finding such ticketing options, other than having an encyclopaedic knowledge?

Lets see...

I know that change of route excesses are available, that the shortest route between two stations is a valid route, and that there are a lot of routes which have tickets with a route restriction which allows travel via London, as well as another route which does not.

For your intended journey, I knew that Diss-London isn't much further via Cambridge than via Ipswich (and so that there are a lot of stations between the two where the shortest route goes via Cambridge). I also knew that you weren't staying long enough for the outward part of an anytime return to expire (and so having it expire during your return journey would not be a problem).

All I did then was to pick a station between London and Cambridge, checked that it had a choice of ticket routes, and put it into a journey planner to make sure it said it was a valid route, and that the journey wouldn't take too long on a train which stops there.