Stratford London after crossrail

[mrmartin]

Stratford station is getting overcrowded at the moment.

I was very surprised to read that no real adjustments will be made to the station as part of Crossrail.

The interchange between TfL rail & the central line is very busy at peak times, just not enough space for passengers to get to off while people board, not helped by the various offices and other stuff taking up a lot of the platform space.

Considering these platforms are going to be used for crossrail and the continued massive growth of pax at stratford in general, I think this is short sighted.

 

[Nym]

You're right, it is.

But what would you do about it?

 

[jopsuk]

In theory interchange between Crossrail & TfL rail should reduce, or perhaps even reverse direction somewhat

 

[telstarbox]

Once Crossrail starts a lot of the current Central line passengers won't need to get off in the morning as they will carry on on Crossrail.

 

[bicbasher]

Once Crossrail starts a lot of the current Central line passengers won't need to get off in the morning as they will carry on on Crossrail.

If anything, some pax may change from the Central to Crossrail at Stratford instead which will help capacity at stations such as Mile End and Bethnal Green.

 

[Class 170101]

More changing at Stratford between Mainline trains and Crossrail seems likely I would have thought.

 

[swt_passenger]

In theory interchange between Crossrail & TfL rail should reduce, or perhaps even reverse direction somewhat

Crossrail replaces TfL Rail, I guess you meant Crossrail and LU...

 

[Clip]

Stratford station is getting overcrowded at the moment.

I was very surprised to read that no real adjustments will be made to the station as part of Crossrail.

The interchange between TfL rail & the central line is very busy at peak times, just not enough space for passengers to get to off while people board, not helped by the various offices and other stuff taking up a lot of the platform space.

Considering these platforms are going to be used for crossrail and the continued massive growth of pax at stratford in general, I think this is short sighted.

I think a lot of people who use it now will actually change how they travel totally and get to a crossrail station without passing onto the central line first - so I think there will be much of an increase on the buses rather than more chaos at stratford

 

[AM9]

I think a lot of people who use it now will actually change how they travel totally and get to a crossrail station without passing onto the central line first - so I think there will be much of an increase on the buses rather than more chaos at stratford

As in those in central Redbridge travelling south on buses to Seven Kings to Manor Park rather than picking up the Central Line between Newbury Park and Wanstead?

 

[306024]

More changing at Stratford between Mainline trains and Crossrail seems likely I would have thought.

In the morning peak and off peak yes quite likely, in the evening peak more chance of getting a seat at Liverpool St of course. However Liverpool St Crossrail station is quite deep underground and one end is nearer Moorgate so it will take a while to surface, which may put people off changing there.

Some of the congestion on platform 8 at Stratford in the evening peak is Forest Gate and Manor Park passengers being scared to move down the train for fear of not being able to get off again. The new class 345 units with 3 sets of doors per coach and more standing space will make a big difference. The only snag is it is May 2019 before the whole service is 345 operated.

 

[jopsuk]

I did mean Crossrail and LU, yes. Oops.

Obviously major changes are hard. Anything involving "starting again" is impractical. But if you could start again (along with my idiot six-track to Shenfield wibble) I'd go for the main high level part being:

(engage wibble mode extreme)


=====================
Central Line Eastbound -->
Down Essex & Ipswich EMUs -->
=====================
===================== Down Avoiding Line
=====================
Down Intercity -->
Crossrail Eastbound -->
=====================
=====================
<-- Crossrail Westbound
<-- Up Intercity
=====================
===================== Up Avoiding Line
=====================
<-- Up Essex & Ipswich EMUs
<-- Central line Westbound
=====================


I'd shuffle the lines so that at Shenfield you'd then have:

===================== Down Intercity Avoiding
=====================
Down Essex & Ipswich EMUs -->
Crossrail terminating
=====================
=====================
Crossrail Starting
<-- Up Essex & Ipswich EMUs
=====================
===================== Up Intercity Avoiding


With intention to encourage Essex & Ipswich EMU users onto Crossrail at Shenfield, with Intercity users accessing Crossrail at Stratford. Wiblbe wibble!

 

[Southend Rider]

As a regular user of Stratford for Southend Vic services, platforms 10 & 10a really do need a canopy as when it is raining people wait on the stairs until the service arrives to avoid getting wet.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I did mean Crossrail and LU, yes. Oops.

Obviously major changes are hard. Anything involving "starting again" is impractical. But if you could start again (along with my idiot six-track to Shenfield wibble) I'd go for the main high level part being:

(engage wibble mode extreme)


=====================
Central Line Eastbound -->
Down Essex & Ipswich EMUs -->
=====================
===================== Down Avoiding Line
=====================
Down Intercity -->
Crossrail Eastbound -->
=====================
=====================
<-- Crossrail Westbound
<-- Up Intercity
=====================
===================== Up Avoiding Line
=====================
<-- Up Essex & Ipswich EMUs
<-- Central line Westbound
=====================


I'd shuffle the lines so that at Shenfield you'd then have:

===================== Down Intercity Avoiding
=====================
Down Essex & Ipswich EMUs -->
Crossrail terminating
=====================
=====================
Crossrail Starting
<-- Up Essex & Ipswich EMUs
=====================
===================== Up Intercity Avoiding


With intention to encourage Essex & Ipswich EMU users onto Crossrail at Shenfield, with Intercity users accessing Crossrail at Stratford. Wiblbe wibble!

I really can't see many people changing to cross rail at Shenfield as it will be a much longer journey. Indeed Brentwood commuters travel out to Shenfield then back into Liverpool St as it is quicker than the current TFL service.

 

[306024]

As a regular user of Stratford for Southend Vic services, platforms 10 & 10a really do need a canopy as when it is raining people wait on the stairs until the service arrives to avoid getting wet.

I really can't see many people changing to cross rail at Shenfield as it will be a much longer journey. Indeed Brentwood commuters travel out to Shenfield then back into Liverpool St as it is quicker than the current TFL service.

A canopy on platforms 9 and 10 and to a degree on 10a and 11 would indeed greatly improve the passenger flow around Stratford when it is raining. Comes at a hefty price but money is spent on worse ideas.

Ask 100 people if they would change at Shenfield rather than Stratford for Crossrail and you may get one (who probably didn't understand the question). There are eleven stops between Shenfield and Stratford and it takes twenty minutes longer.

.........With intention to encourage Essex & Ipswich EMU users onto Crossrail at Shenfield, with Intercity users accessing Crossrail at Stratford. Wiblbe wibble!

Wiblbe wibble - you said it

 

[plcd1]

It is very likely that TfL will restructure a large number of bus services so that they act as feeders to Crossrail stations in East London. This will help shift demand to Crossrail and away from tube lines. This should help reduce cross platform interchange at Stratford to / from the Central Line.

The wider problem is the likely scale of development at Stratford and what that does to capacity in the station. I expect there will be an argument that the extra infrastructure installed pre 2012 is not exhausted and that there is therefore scope to absorb much greater numbers of people entering / exiting Stratford.

The most problematic part of the station is the old "central" corridor that runs from the main ticket hall northwards. That is far too narrow and far too overloaded now but there's no easy fix to make it bigger. I expect the tactic will simply be to route people via different corridors and stairs.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I realize it would be very costly to do now, but would the 'ideal' solution have been to make the area under the National Rail/LUL/TfL Rail platforms a single large open space (like how I understand London Bridge will become after redevelopment) rather than the current arrangement of narrow corridors?

 

[Nym]

It would probably be cheaper to build a level deck above all the platforms(!)...

 

[simple simon]

As in those in central Redbridge travelling south on buses to Seven Kings to Manor Park rather than picking up the Central Line between Newbury Park and Wanstead?

I wont!

As it is a PAYG journey from Ilford is 40p dearer than from Gants Hill, despite both being in zone 4.

Only people who buy Travelcard season tickets pay identical fares.

re: Stratford, yes there should be platform canopies over platforms 9/10 as well as 10a, 11, 12.

Canopy apart the station benefited from much capacity enhancement for the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic games. This included a new interchange passageway serving many platforms at the eastern end of the station. I nearly always use this when going to /from the North London Line as its less crowded. I sometimes also use it between the Jubilee Line and platforms 6/8, although as it does not reach platform 3a so can only do so when its possible to walk (between 3a and 3) through a westbound Central Line train.

The overcrowding on platform 8 is a fault of whoever cast the timetable. At present something like 16 trains call here between 17:00 and 18:02. Of course only some of these call at the three stations before Ilford. In 1980 (I still have the timetable book!) 22 trains called here in the same time period, including 7 that called at stations between here and Ilford, with four of these actually terminating in the bay platform at Ilford.

If TfL Rail brought back the four Ilford trains which called at all stations then it would help tremendously. Maybe though because some of the Class 315s which were built for the local all stations service have been sent elsewhere there are no longer enough trains to provide the required service levels.

Simon

 

[Clip]

As in those in central Redbridge travelling south on buses to Seven Kings to Manor Park rather than picking up the Central Line between Newbury Park and Wanstead?

Possibly an even larger area - who knows. We are however constantly told that people don't like changing trains so it seems likely that people would rather not if they can get direct and probably a seat too.

 

[AM9]

Possibly an even larger area - who knows. We are however constantly told that people don't like changing trains so it seems likely that people would rather not if they can get direct and probably a seat too.

Those from Clayhall Ave., The Drive and Cranbrook areas who at present travel all the way into central London on the Central Line may well consider the buses along Cranbrook Road to Ilford reasonable with a smoother journey to beyond Liverpool St, rather than squeezing onto the Central at Gants Hill or Redbridge for a slower, less comfortable journey.
40p each way is a small price to pay for more comfort and possibly a small saving in time.

 

[Clip]

Indeed and they may even have seasons anyway so there will be no cost. I try not to venture that far east

 

[306024]

The overcrowding on platform 8 is a fault of whoever cast the timetable. At present something like 16 trains call here between 17:00 and 18:02. Of course only some of these call at the three stations before Ilford. In 1980 (I still have the timetable book!) 22 trains called here in the same time period, including 7 that called at stations between here and Ilford, with four of these actually terminating in the bay platform at Ilford.

If TfL Rail brought back the four Ilford trains which called at all stations then it would help tremendously. Maybe though because some of the Class 315s which were built for the local all stations service have been sent elsewhere there are no longer enough trains to provide the required service levels.

And I still have the unit diagrams! There were 72 class 306 diagrams, which equates to 24 x 9 car trains. Now there are just 20 x 8 car class 315s. So yes you are correct, not enough trains. Also Platform 5 at Ilford is to be taken out of use to enable platform 4 to be extended, so that scuppers the other idea.

Possibly an even larger area - who knows. We are however constantly told that people don't like changing trains so it seems likely that people would rather not if they can get direct and probably a seat too.

Get a seat You obviously don't venture out East often. And the 345s will have far fewer seats than the 315s.

 

[AM9]

I wont!

As it is a PAYG journey from Ilford is 40p dearer than from Gants Hill, despite both being in zone 4.

Many will pay what will seem to be a small increase for a smoother journey. Even way back in the '60s, tickets on BR lines were more expensive than the underground including Ilford-Stratford vs Gants Hill-Stratford, despite the surface journey being about 1.5 miles shorter. There are also opportunities for non-stop trains between those stations, sometimes taking as little as 6 minutes.

The overcrowding on platform 8 is a fault of whoever cast the timetable. At present something like 16 trains call here between 17:00 and 18:02. Of course only some of these call at the three stations before Ilford. In 1980 (I still have the timetable book!) 22 trains called here in the same time period, including 7 that called at stations between here and Ilford, with four of these actually terminating in the bay platform at Ilford.

If TfL Rail brought back the four Ilford trains which called at all stations then it would help tremendously. Maybe though because some of the Class 315s which were built for the local all stations service have been sent elsewhere there are no longer enough trains to provide the required service levels.

It's unlikely that the Ilford trains can run unless they pass through and reverse in the car shed sidings as platform 4 needs to be lengthened to handle 200m class 345s, which will close off the entrance to platform 5.

 

[hassaanhc]

Stratford station is getting overcrowded at the moment.

I was very surprised to read that no real adjustments will be made to the station as part of Crossrail.

The interchange between TfL rail & the central line is very busy at peak times, just not enough space for passengers to get to off while people board, not helped by the various offices and other stuff taking up a lot of the platform space.

Considering these platforms are going to be used for crossrail and the continued massive growth of pax at stratford in general, I think this is short sighted.

It is a perfect example of why cross-platform interchange between two busy routes is not a good idea, as there is less room for passengers to spread around, particularly during disruption when people are backed up on the platform. That is why the Jubilee Line Extension was built with interchange capacity in mind, unlike the Victoria Line in the 1960s, and copes far better in disruption.

But yes, the lack of canopies at P9-11 is diabolical for busy platforms at a major station.

Many will pay what will seem to be a small increase for a smoother journey. Even way back in the '60s, tickets on BR lines were more expensive than the underground including Ilford-Stratford vs Gants Hill-Stratford, despite the surface journey being about 1.5 miles shorter. There are also opportunities for non-stop trains between those stations, sometimes taking as little as 6 minutes.

I pay extra for Z1-5 (instead of Z1-4), as I much prefer the empty SWT services with full-size trains to/from Hounslow, instead of the very busy Piccadilly Line with puny little Tube stock. Even with a 15-30 minute time penalty (as the SWT route is slightly further away) and a 1/3 of the frequency. Heck, I even plan around the 1tph on Sundays

 

[Clip]

Get a seat You obviously don't venture out East often. And the 345s will have far fewer seats than the 315s.

E17 is me limit!! Though I do drive to Wanted or South woodford from time to time but never get the tube there.

 

[Class 170101]

The overcrowding on platform 8 is a fault of whoever cast the timetable. At present something like 16 trains call here between 17:00 and 18:02. Of course only some of these call at the three stations before Ilford. In 1980 (I still have the timetable book!) 22 trains called here in the same time period, including 7 that called at stations between here and Ilford, with four of these actually terminating in the bay platform at Ilford.

If TfL Rail brought back the four Ilford trains which called at all stations then it would help tremendously. Maybe though because some of the Class 315s which were built for the local all stations service have been sent elsewhere there are no longer enough trains to provide the required service levels.

Simon

And I still have the unit diagrams! There were 72 class 306 diagrams, which equates to 24 x 9 car trains. Now there are just 20 x 8 car class 315s. So yes you are correct, not enough trains. Also Platform 5 at Ilford is to be taken out of use to enable platform 4 to be extended, so that scuppers the other idea.

However there is now a new centre siding at Chadwell Heath which could be used for this purpose instead if the extra time in the timetable can be covered within the existing fleet.

 

[306024]

However there is now a new centre siding at Chadwell Heath which could be used for this purpose instead if the extra time in the timetable can be covered within the existing fleet.

Indeed there is, but Ilford to Chadwell Heath and back would take about an extra 14 minutes, so no time in the diagrams to allow the Ilford starters to start from Chadwell Heath without getting another train.

 

[TheNewNo2]

I realize it would be very costly to do now, but would the 'ideal' solution have been to make the area under the National Rail/LUL/TfL Rail platforms a single large open space (like how I understand London Bridge will become after redevelopment) rather than the current arrangement of narrow corridors?

Unfortunately there's a railway in the way.

 

[Class 170101]

Unfortunately there's a railway in the way.

Would it be possible to open up intermediate 'space' using Eastern and Western subways as the boundary walls?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed there is, but Ilford to Chadwell Heath and back would take about an extra 14 minutes, so no time in the diagrams to allow the Ilford starters to start from Chadwell Heath without getting another train.

LM 321s, or 319s anyone.

Something will obviously need doing once the bay disappears around Spring next year.

 

[simple simon]

And I still have the unit diagrams! There were 72 class 306 diagrams, which equates to 24 x 9 car trains. Now there are just 20 x 8 car class 315s. So yes you are correct, not enough trains.

Ah thanks for confirming what I always thought was so.

Also Platform 5 at Ilford is to be taken out of use to enable platform 4 to be extended, so that scuppers the other idea..

Thats a shame, doubly so as the main platform exit is at the eastern end of the train! (maybe they plan to open the current 'rush hours only' gate at the western end of the station at all times?)

I accept that they are going for the easy option but extending at the other end would have been better. As at Dalston Kingsland.

In addition to greater capacity another of the advantages of trains terminating at Ilford is that in the mornings there are oodles seats for the Ilford passengers!

-------------------------

re: passengers from places such as The Drive, if they currently take a bus to Redbridge then going to Ilford instead may be just as easy.

I used to live on Cranbrook Road, very close to Bethell Avenue (the road junction with a triangle and a phone box), Gants Hill was about 8 minutes walk away and Ilford about 15 minutes, or less, depending on how quickly I walked. I tended to go to Gants Hill for work but Ilford for leisure journeys and I'd time my journeys for the train on the Colchester run as it then went non-stop to Liverpool St in about a dozen minutes. Usually these were class 312's but there were times when I travelled on a 309 (nice and even nicer - choice of compartment or open seating, even in 2nd class).

The Southend trains also called at Stratford but missed out the other three stations. This made all the difference as it meant that despite the longer walk (from Ilford stn to home) the overall journey home was still faster. I never took buses, unless in a desperate rush or it was raining heavily.

I suspect (but hope that I'm wrong) that once Crossrail starts all trains will be all stations. What with Whitechapel too this will make journeys to Liverpool Street noticeably slower, although if going further west then there will be some time advantages.

Simon

 

[coupwotcoup]

If only double decker trains had been catered for back in the day....