Strategic Steam Reserve Discussion

[Yew]

The whole idea does raise some thought though. What I need to do, is relocate and live in a tent near the tunnel mouth. Then, when the bombs are launched, I run in the tunnel and preserve my safety. Then, after several months, when things have died down and radiation levels allow it, I go back outside, set the tent back up and await the inevitable steam trains leaving the tunnel, an ideal photo opportunity. Anyone want to join me?

How can you run into the tunnel if its full of old steam locos?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

How can you run into the tunnel if its full of old steam locos?

Presumably the steam loco's will be on a bit of track, and not literally crammed in

 

[Darandio]

How can you run into the tunnel if its full of old steam locos?

They are not in the tunnel, not the physical tunnel that is travelled through daily. How else does traffic travel through?

There is some sort of blast door and a set of points somewhere inside the tunnel that leads to a huge chamber where the maintenance depot is. No really, it is huge and it is there.
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I must actually add what I saw around 3-4 years ago. I cannot find the site now so I presume it has gone for good, but it did make some really funny reading from a guy who had "witnessed" the site first hand, despite giving plenty of inconsistencies in his memoirs. Basically, once the guy had "revealed" he had been there, he was happy to host all sorts of questions, much of it I cannot remember but the main one stood out.

The main one I remember was a question with regards to storage, general upkeep and the fact that these locomotives would be useless once stored for so many years. The reply was quite forthright and full of fact.

What he said was that this "chamber" where they were stored was truly massive, biblical proportions apparently. Massive ventilation equipment, recently updated apparently was present and all steam locomotives would be fired daily (sometimes constantly), on dozens of rolling roads to run and preserve them through providing regular mileage.

One interesting thing mentioned was the staff that would provide constant maintenance. In the early years, these would be BR staff that were familiar with the locomotives and as years passed, only direct relatives of these staff would be cherry picked, something that has continued to this day.

The final thing that got me was the inconsistency in his comments which culminated in the entrance to the actual complex. This was protected by a set of points near the centre of the tunnel, disguised as catch points (how?) and the actual entrance was a set of double blast doors, coated with identical material to the tunnel itself to provide stealth to anyone who would try and find the location. How he knew this is anyones guess, especially when his accounts had stated he had been inside the chamber. Maybe he was some sort of hidden agent, an Ethan Hunt type.

 

[NXEA!]

What we really want is the Southern Region version of the SSR, the Strategic Slammer Reserve. Tunnels and bunkers full of CIGs, VEPs, CEPs, EPBs etc!

Yes, I second that!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Tut tut, Darandio, that one isn't a tunnel - it's the blank wall at the country end of the high numbered side of Clapham Junction with a tiny bit of track aimed at it...

 

[western Champion]

Maybe he was some sort of hidden agent, an Ethan Hunt type.

Or Issac Hunt !

 

[Darandio]

Tut tut, Darandio, that one isn't a tunnel - it's the blank wall at the country end of the high numbered side of Clapham Junction with a tiny bit of track aimed at it...

Don't blame me for what I read.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Don't worry, I'm not blaming you - just throwing another spanner into the thread!




( I wonder how many people are going to be taking high res photos of that end wall now in order to see if the brickwork fully matches the sides?! )

 

[Darandio]

Don't worry, I'm not blaming you - just throwing another spanner into the thread!




( I wonder how many people are going to be taking high res photos of that end wall now in order to see if the brickwork fully matches the sides?! )

But there are no joins apparently, and its halfway in.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

.....and with a nice sloping down area behind it on where nobody has been allowed to build on and which leads towards a huge Common...

 

[BestWestern]

Has anybody found this page yet?

http://www.willys-mb.co.uk/strategic-reserve.htm

A 'true' factual account, including some quotes from the boss!

Check out the hilarious photo halfway down 'from the 1970s' of the guy stood in the cab - is it just me or has the head been superimposed on??!!

 

[Hydro]

This was protected by a set of points near the centre of the tunnel, disguised as catch points (how?) and the actual entrance was a set of double blast doors, coated with identical material to the tunnel itself to provide stealth to anyone who would try and find the location. How he knew this is anyones guess, especially when his accounts had stated he had been inside the chamber. Maybe he was some sort of hidden agent, an Ethan Hunt type.

It's especially funny given the dozens of times I've rattled through Box and not felt any characteristic rumble or shove of a train going over a common crossing at the centre of a set of points.

 

[LE Greys]

It's especially funny given the dozens of times I've rattled through Box and not felt any characteristic rumble or shove of a train going over a common crossing at the centre of a set of points.

We'll have to speak to a Western driver, someone who has been through the tunnel on the 9th of April (when it is illuminated from end to end by the sun - and it happens to be Brunel's birthday). Any door in the side would be visible when that happens. If this involves a tunnel beside the current one, perhaps covered over like Thunderbird 2's hanger, then it seems a bit more likely that they would just lay some new track and have a spare crossover stored inside somewhere.

I'm sure I saw something like that on a television programme once, only in this case it was a railway gun concealed in an old mine with a hidden door and a removable buffer stop on the end of a siding leading to it.

 

[d5509]

We'll have to speak to a Western driver, someone who has been through the tunnel on the 9th of April (when it is illuminated from end to end by the sun - and it happens to be Brunel's birthday). Any door in the side would be visible when that happens. If this involves a tunnel beside the current one, perhaps covered over like Thunderbird 2's hanger, then it seems a bit more likely that they would just lay some new track and have a spare crossover stored inside somewhere.

I'm sure I saw something like that on a television programme once, only in this case it was a railway gun concealed in an old mine with a hidden door and a removable buffer stop on the end of a siding leading to it.

I remember reading that a Box Tunnel connection was designed to be un-bricked for a junction track (presumably ready behind the wall) to be installed by army engineeers. However, this was to receive express trains of government personell from Paddington.
Well it made good reading and it sounds plausable.
I think if there had been such a reserve, then it would have been in several places away from potential targets. Box tunnel, on a strategic rail route, would have made a tempting target for a SU24 pilot.

 

[ainsworth74]

Box tunnel, on a strategic rail route, would have made a tempting target for a SU24 pilot.

If the Warsaw Pact had pushed far enough west to enable Su-24s to hit targets in Western England then I think our main worry wouldn't have been damaged rail links but the impending nuclear firestorm.

Now if you had mentioned a Tu-22M or Tu-160 then I would agree

 

[Hydro]

I think if there had been such a reserve, then it would have been in several places away from potential targets. Box tunnel, on a strategic rail route, would have made a tempting target for a SU24 pilot.

The entire area of Box would've been absolutely hammered. Not for the tunnel, but for what is actually in the hills and quarries around it.

 

[LE Greys]

The entire area of Box would've been absolutely hammered. Not for the tunnel, but for what is actually in the hills and quarries around it.

Hmm, difficult target without a direct hit. A Lancaster from 617 Squadron once destroyed a tunnel in Normandy, just before the invasion, by dropping a 6-ton "Tallboy" bomb through 60 ft of earth about 60 yards into the tunnel. It crashed through the roof and brought about half the tunnel down. The Germans had to send their reinforcements around the blockage by road, and only just finished clearing it when they Allies liberated it. Unfortunately, they weren't sure which bomb-aimer achieved that feat, otherwise he might have got a DFM.

Now, that involves a Lancaster with a specially-trained crew, a specialist bombsight and a 6-ton bomb - going through earth rather than rock. The Soviets might have gone for a somewhat cruder method, most likely taking out Swindon, and thus cutting off Box entirely. Today, it might just be possible to block a portal with an LGB. If they knew about what was in the tunnel (eminently possible, they did have the KGB on their side) then they might simply turn the whole area into a concrete slab with a nuclear weapon - or a dozen. You should have seen the things they aimed at NORAD, twenty-five megaton yield, mounted on R-36M missiles (SS-18s).

Aren't you glad those days are over? hock:

 

[Hydro]

.If they knew about what was in the tunnel (eminently possible, they did have the KGB on their side) then they might simply turn the whole area into a concrete slab with a nuclear weapon

That's the most likely scenario. RAF Rudloe Manor was situated above the complex at Corsham, a probable target. If it ever became apparent to the Soviets that BURLINGTON was situated underneath the whole shebang, then most of the Box area would have been turned into a crater.

Utterly chilling times.

 

[ainsworth74]

Utterly chilling times.

Ever seen Threads or The War Game? They are chilling films, Threads especially, it didn't give me nightmares but I certainly didn't sleep very well that night.

 

[Hydro]

I've seen Threads, what a delightful romp that was. I especially like the traffic wardens armed with SLR's and the Army shooting looters. At least it was centred around Sheffield, that took the edge off it, imagine the reaction if they based it somewhere people cared about? (I'm a bad man, I know.)

 

[Yew]

http://www.secretscotland.org.uk/forum/m-1242495333/

Hi Fox,
This is probably a new can of worms. Uncle G(BR...Out of Ladybrurn/Glasgow Central & the odd freight service out of Greenock-RIP) told me of the MOD courses.Uncle G was a great guy-very left wing.Almost an MP but thats another story.Anyway.In the mid 70s the drivers were sent on a steam course. in connection with oil shortages Etc..Just in case...This brings me to the following.About to start on another thread...sorry to report but the Greenock Princes Pier line has been destroyed.On other websites the destruction of this valuable Atlantic-to europe link has been ripped up and the freight link from Greenock to the South Coast ports has been severed.Shame on the local politicians.

#

I suppose it could have been possible there was a reserve for a few years then?

 

[Hydro]

Or still a good number of withdrawn engines lining the scrap yards and depots seeing as steam lasted until 1968?

 

[Yew]

Or still a good number of withdrawn engines lining the scrap yards and depots seeing as steam lasted until 1968?

I suppose they would have kept servicing them while waiting to be scrapped if there where these problems?


I imagine that they wouldnt torch them all at once, Probably due to the budgets if they did, they would have surplus cash, and get less funding from the government the next year? so do a few each year. So you keep funding, and have an emergancy reserve if needed.


Does anyone remember the old episode of thomas the tank engine where they find a train in a cave? all wrapped up?

 

[Hydro]

Why service them? Some diesels have been out in the elements without so much as a sweep out for years before overhauled and pressed back into service. I gather some of the 58's sent to France were almost junk before being practically rebuilt. The same presumably could have been done with a few steam engines in the 70's IF there was a genuine case to do so.

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi there,
The whole area around Box Tunnel is riddled with storerooms, corridors and access tunnels.

In the mid 80's I was an Air Cadet and we went on summer camp at a RAF station in that area. We got taken on a number of trips. One that was particularly memorable was being taken underground in the Box Hill complex.

We were led through various passagesways and there was an room / cave with Victorian brickwork. We were told that it was Box Tunnel. From the other side you could hear the passing of the trains.

Did I see a hanger full of steam engines?
Sadly no.


Mind you, we didn't see all the complex. There may well have been such a thing down there but I'll never know!

Cheers,
Jason

 

[d5509]

Why service them? Some diesels have been out in the elements without so much as a sweep out for years before overhauled and pressed back into service. I gather some of the 58's sent to France were almost junk before being practically rebuilt. The same presumably could have been done with a few steam engines in the 70's IF there was a genuine case to do so.

I recall a story of a US railroad that had a reserve of diesel locos in "warm" storage: they warmed them up now and again and then cranked them over for a while to keep them ready for use at short notice. The EMP is supposed to affect electronics more than the basic electrical circuits which you would find in early deisels. If an SSR then why not an SDR? Food for thought ?

 

[moonrakerz]

Has anybody found this page yet?

http://www.willys-mb.co.uk/strategic-reserve.htm

"the mothballed Jeep factory "

How do you mothball a figment of someone's imagination ?

 

[Hydro]

How do you mothball a figment of someone's imagination ?

By eating mothballs.

 

[NightatLaira]

It tell you what there is a strategic reserve of at the moment!

60s, 90s, 87s, mk1 RES coaches and Royal Mail EMUs (all in various states of repairable decay)

And I have a feeling the postal stuff may yet still see action in the future. :roll:


_________________


But on the subject of the SSR - yes, 99% of it is folklore I would imagine. But one thing I can vouch for on a similarly veined theme is that when the Thatcher government was closing down the coal mines in the 80s - all the major bits of coal cutting machinery that were underground at the time of the closures REMAINED THERE in situ. The thought being that if the mines ever needed to be re-opened in the near future, the infrastructure would still be there.

A taxi driver friend of mine who used to be a fairly high ranking machine engineer is fond of telling a story of visiting one of the closed Selby coal fields in the early 90s with some asset surveyors to investigate the possibility of bringing all this stuff back up to surface and selling it. The machinery was found to be in shockingly good condition despite 12 years underground, all covered over in tarpaulins, like it had been left there yesterday. But many of the designs were now obsolete, and in many cases the technology had moved on. Alas the stuff is still down there so he believes - and there is tonnes and tonnes of it! In theory it should be worth a fortune to someone... or will/could make an interesting museum for someone someday.

 

[Lieut Campers]

Ive seen mention several times on this forum about a Strategic Steam Reserve (SSR). This prompted me to do a little research on the subject i came across this wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_steam_reserve and other websites where people have claimed to be involved in the maintainence of locos in the SSR. The idea of the SSR as far as i can find out is that in the event of nuclear war EMP would render diesel and electric units useless, ChrisCooper also makes the exellent point in post 12 here http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=45496 that points out that in the event of EMP the signalling would also be rendered inoperable. Now I'm not suggesting that if the SSR ever existed it would still exist today but I can see the point of such a thing the Cold War with the paranoia that the soviet uninon was going to start chucking nukes about (thankfully they diddnt) the government were going to start thinking of a way to transport goods without the need to use electicity and steam would be ideal. But also i think that the preservation movement would have saved enough steam locos to be an SSR in themselves making the need for a secret bunker at Box Tunnel or where ever irellevent. What do you guys think there are too many stories out there about this and "eyewitness" accounts for me to dismiss the idea without asking for opinions first.

Must admit I do like these stories about the British Strategic Steam Reserve
but ( as the latest Freedom of Information Act request says ) theirs no
hard proof, that it ever existed, except in the form of the Steam
Preservation Lines.
Still saying that Sweden had its very own Strategic Steam Reserve which is
real and well documented. In fact only 3 years ago they were still finding
fmore hidden steam engines locked away in forest engine sheds in some of
the remotest regions of Sweden.

Of course Lieut Campers has been on the trail of the Strategic Steam reserve
for some years and has come up with some great new articles on the
subject. Which includes that breath taking moment when german film
crews finally uncovered another Strategic Steam reserve engine shed.

Anyway heres Lieut Campers post on the History Forum, as you can imagine
the articles a little tongue in cheek but a good read nevertheless.

The Strategic Steam Reserve and a Soviet Great Britain