Strasbourg to Frankfurt - reservations compulsory on ICE?

[AdamWW]

All of which is entirely irrelevant to a passenger purchasing a reservation for a DB train on the DB website. If SNCF have a problem with that then it is between them and DB, the passenger has used a valid ticket with a valid reservation, end of story.

I wouldn't want to rely on that interpretation.

If the rules say an Interrail pass requires a quota-controlled supplement, it's not clear to me that getting a much cheaper reservation for that journey out of DB would make it valid.

 

[superalbs]

True, there are odd international edge cases. The Berlin-Warszawa Express (just sold as a PKP service these days I think) is too, but it's a bit more like those TGVs - it's really a Polish service that operates under Polish conditions which includes compulsory(ish*) reservations. But the specific ICEs under discussion aren't really ICEs, they are TGVs in ICE clothing and follow all French norms, from ticketing to catering and everything in between. This was part of the agreement between SNCF and DB for the joint operation, which is a bit like Thalys in concept but unlike that isn't a separate jointly-owned** company.

* Other than the EIP (Pendolino) where there's a fine for not reserving, PKP's setup is a bit like what we do now on IC type routes - tickets are sold with a reservation, but there's no penalty for not having one, though unlike here all coaches are reservable and reservations aren't marked, so not having one leads to an awkward game of musical chairs.

** DB sold their stake in Thalys I believe.

Not catering, the catering offer on France-Germany TGVs is far inferior to the France-Germany ICEs. Just another reason to avoid the TGV!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Apr 2023 ==

The rules state that you need a seat reservation, so if you turn up with a ticket and a specific reserved seat, then you have fulfilled their requirements.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Apr 2023 ==

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I also note that DB are selling €5 reservations on the Paris-Barcelona TGVs, which normally go for €50!

Get them while you can...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I also note that DB are selling €5 reservations on the Paris-Barcelona TGVs, which normally go for €50!

Get them while you can...

I *definitely* wouldn't try that. It sounds like DB's website is misbehaving if it's selling classic seat reservations alone on any TGV as they have no validity.

I would not assume that German/French/Spanish contract law works the same way as the UK's.

 

[Flying Snail]

I wouldn't want to rely on that interpretation.

If the rules say an Interrail pass requires a quota-controlled supplement, it's not clear to me that getting a much cheaper reservation for that journey out of DB would make it valid.

Firstly, there is no supplement, only reservations. As SNCF charge different amounts on a whim and it is far from unique that different rail companies charge differing amounts for the same reservations who is to say the price DB charge is wrong.

Secondly, can you point out where this rule is written?

 

[superalbs]

I *definitely* wouldn't try that. It sounds like DB's website is misbehaving if it's selling classic seat reservations alone on any TGV as they have no validity.

I would not assume that German/French/Spanish contract law works the same way as the UK's.

Well if you have a travel ticket and a seat reservation...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well if you have a travel ticket and a seat reservation...

You don't have the correct reservation for that train. You have something that shouldn't have been issued, for which your remedy may well simply be for that fee to be refunded.

We're all very familiar with the UK approach and UK contract law, and how we can use that to our advantage if the railway screws up a bit, but really, it's poor advice to assume those same legal provisions apply outside the UK, and the consequences are potentially quite severe.

If you can't afford EUR17 (as I think it is) you probably can't afford the trip at all, as I say to anyone who travels without insurance then starts sticking up crowdfunders to pay to get them home after they got hurt, for example.

If someone's got it in writing from both DB and the train's operator that these are valid, please do post it, but I think suggesting people try this on (particularly as we pretty much know DB are issuing these in error, certainly for actual TGVs) is extremely poor advice.

 

[AdamWW]

Firstly, there is no supplement, only reservations. As SNCF charge different amounts on a whim and it is far from unique that different rail companies charge differing amounts for the same reservations who is to say the price DB charge is wrong.

Secondly, can you point out where this rule is written?

No, I can't. I said "if".

Based on what I've read, I would be wary of doing this. Other people can do as they see fit.

And while a £17 charge to use an Interrail ticket may be officially described as a reservation, it's clearly a supplement in reality.

And yes the cost of a true reservation (i.e. one that just guarantees a seat and applies to regular tickets as well as Interrail passes) can vary depending on where you buy it, but so far as I know the cost of an Interrail supplement is set by the operator and shouldn't vary unless a handling charge is added.

 

[cactustwirly]

You don't have the correct reservation for that train. You have something that shouldn't have been issued, for which your remedy may well simply be for that fee to be refunded.

We're all very familiar with the UK approach and UK contract law, and how we can use that to our advantage if the railway screws up a bit, but really, it's poor advice to assume those same legal provisions apply outside the UK, and the consequences are potentially quite severe.

If you can't afford EUR17 (as I think it is) you probably can't afford the trip at all, as I say to anyone who travels without insurance then starts sticking up crowdfunders to pay to get them home after they got hurt, for example.

If someone's got it in writing from both DB and the train's operator that these are valid, please do post it, but I think suggesting people try this on (particularly as we pretty much know DB are issuing these in error, certainly for actual TGVs) is extremely poor advice.

I'm struggling to understand the issue, the train is a DB train, with a reservation from DB with the details of the train written down in black and white.

Is this not the same as getting the Eurostar reservations from SNCB rather than via Eurostar?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm struggling to understand the issue, the train is a DB train, with a reservation from DB with the details of the train written down in black and white.

Is this not the same as getting the Eurostar reservations from SNCB rather than via Eurostar?

The train isn't a proper DB train. While it has the ICE Gattung, it's operated under specific conditions as part of a joint operation agreement between DB and SNCF. It only operates to normal German conditions for domestic German journeys. Internationally it is to all intents and purposes a TGV.

This relates only to this specific route. The Dutch ICEs and the ones that enter Switzerland work differently; I believe those two work as conventional international trains.

I'm not saying this absolutely isn't valid, but given that we know that a reservation with InterRail on this train should be EUR17 we know that this isn't being done correctly, and short of someone able to advise us on German contract law we don't know what provisions we can rely upon, unlike in the UK.

If you want to risk wrecking your holiday for about EUR12 be my guest, but absent someone posting a written confirmation of validity from DB I would consider this very, very poor advice indeed.

 

[AdamWW]

Is this not the same as getting the Eurostar reservations from SNCB rather than via Eurostar?

Perhaps a better analogy would the SNCB web site incorrectly selling a Eurostar reservation to an Interrail holder at the same rate as they do for regular trains.

 

[Flying Snail]

No, I can't. I said "if".

Based on what I've read, I would be wary of doing this. Other people can do as they see fit.

And while a £17 charge to use an Interrail ticket may be officially described as a reservation, it's clearly a supplement in reality.

And yes the cost of a true reservation (i.e. one that just guarantees a seat and applies to regular tickets as well as Interrail passes) can vary depending on where you buy it, but so far as I know the cost of an Interrail supplement is set by the operator and shouldn't vary unless a handling charge is added.

Some of that you've just made up yourself and most of it falls well into the category of stuff a normal tourist just touring on an interrail has know way of figuring out.

The train in question is a DB train, interrail is valid on DB, the reservation is sold by DB, there is no reasonable way of arguing that it is not valid.

Funnily enough I had a not dis-similar situation recently with an actual Interrail supplement on OBB. They charge €10-15 on EC trains Austria to Italy and if you add interrail to their booking website and search those routes it adds it as well as a reservation fee. If you do the same thing on the same train but for an internal Italy - Italy journey it does not add the supplement, flat out tells you you have a valid ticket and don't need to pay. I bought the res for €3 and carried on.

Que the ticket check and demand for €15 supplement, on explaining that the website of the operator expressly sold me that without requesting the supplement he did the classic "well next time..." and backed off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps a better analogy would the SNCB web site incorrectly selling a Eurostar reservation to an Interrail holder at the same rate as they do for regular trains.

Yes, exactly that.

 

[Flying Snail]

Perhaps a better analogy would the SNCB web site incorrectly selling a Eurostar reservation to an Interrail holder at the same rate as they do for regular trains.

Then that would be a matter between SNCB and Eurostar.

OBB are currently issuing 1st class reservations for free, not only on their own services but also on DB who charge €4.50 is this wrong? Maybe, Is it the customer's problem? No.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then that would be a matter between SNCB and Eurostar.

If you think you'd be allowed to board a Eurostar with that incorrect reservation, you're having an absolute laugh.

 

[AdamWW]

Some of that you've just made up yourself and most of it falls well into the category of stuff a normal tourist just touring on an interrail has know way of figuring out.

Sorry - what have I just made up?

In any case, I'm not saying it's invalid. I'm saying that I wouldn't risk it. If you were happy to do it then that's fine with me, and if you want to advise others to do the same then that's up to you, though I would suggest that people be wary of taking such advice.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Apr 2023 ==

Then that would be a matter between SNCB and Eurostar.

OBB are currently issuing 1st class reservations for free, not only on their own services but also on DB who charge €4.50 is this wrong? Maybe, Is it the customer's problem? No.

I don't know about the OBB case because I don't know how costs for seat reservations work. Maybe it's considered an "admin fee" and the company selling gets to choose the price and keep the money. Certainly there are plenty of anomalies when it comes to this.

I do know that if I was offered an Interrail Eurostar "reservation" (supplement in all but name) for a few Euros it would be an error. I would not choose to exploit such an error nor would I be confident that - even if I had a contractual right to take advantage of it - I would actually be allowed to travel.

 

[Flying Snail]

The train isn't a proper DB train. While it has the ICE Gattung, it's operated under specific conditions as part of a joint operation agreement between DB and SNCF. It only operates to normal German conditions for domestic German journeys. Internationally it is to all intents and purposes a TGV.

This relates only to this specific route. The Dutch ICEs and the ones that enter Switzerland work differently; I believe those two work as conventional international trains.

I'm not saying this absolutely isn't valid, but given that we know that a reservation with InterRail on this train should be EUR17 we know that this isn't being done correctly, and short of someone able to advise us on German contract law we don't know what provisions we can rely upon, unlike in the UK.

If you want to risk wrecking your holiday for about EUR12 be my guest, but absent someone posting a written confirmation of validity from DB I would consider this very, very poor advice indeed.

You can continue to assert the utter gibberish that these aren't proper DB trains all you like but the trains are by any reasonable description DB trains, listed in timetables as ICE, described in DB Journey planner as Intercity Express with operator listed as DB Fernverkehr AG, SNCF.


As for you knowing what a reservation should cost, there are numerous examples of different operators charging different prices for valid reservations on the same trains. Interrail advises their marks customers to purchase British reservations from ACP rail for €6 a pop, does that make reservations obtained from GWR for free invalid?

The idea that passengers, foreign visitors at that, ought to have intimate knowledge of internal European rail politics to determine that a DB ICE train is really a TGV is just ridiculous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As for you knowing what a reservation should cost, there are numerous examples of different operators charging different prices for valid reservations on the same trains. Interrail advises their marks customers to purchase British reservations from ACP rail for €6 a pop, does that make reservations obtained from GWR for free invalid?

No, but UK reservations are just reservations (bar Sleeper berths) and we know that. We also know that TGVs are global fare trains and don't have simple reservations, and that these ICEs are not normal ICEs, and so that DB are issuing these wrongly. We also don't have the knowledge of German contract law to believe that this error would be resolved in the customer's favour.

Despite this you're advising people to play "clueless tourist" in order to save a tenner putting at risk a trip costing hundreds?

Incredibly, incredibly poor advice.

 

[AdamWW]

The idea that passengers, foreign visitors at that, ought to have intimate knowledge of internal European rail politics to determine that a DB ICE train is really a TGV is just ridiculous.

And the Interrail web site (either on the German or France pages, which both list this service) doesn't give the DB web site as a method for making Interrail reservations.

 

[Flying Snail]

Sorry - what have I just made up?

Supplement. You have made up that word in relation to these reservations. Nowhere are they referred to as anything other than reservations.

I don't know about the OBB case because I don't know how costs for seat reservations work. Maybe it's considered an "admin fee" and the company selling gets to choose the price and keep the money. Certainly there are plenty of anomalies when it comes to this.

I do know that if I was offered an Interrail Eurostar "reservation" (supplement in all but name) for a few Euros it would be an error. I would not choose to exploit such an error nor would I be confident that - even if I had a contractual right to take advantage of it - I would actually be allowed to travel.

How would you know that.

We aren't talking about someone going to a dodgy site, providing false information or intentionally manipulating a system to get the wrong reservation.

Using an official site of the operator (or in the fictional case of SNCB; part owner of Eurostar) and providing all correct information requesed the reservation it offers is wrong how? This is precisely how the vast majority of transactions for reservations happen, it is not beholden on customers to do some deep-dive into the internal machinations of railway politics to determine if the reservation they have been offered by the train operator is for some bizarre reason wrong.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Apr 2023 ==

And the Interrail web site (either on the German or France pages, which both list this service) doesn't give the DB web site as a method for making Interrail reservations.

Really?

Interfail website

How do I book my reservations?

Certain trains in Europe require an advance reservation. Find out how to make reservations on European trains during your Interrail trip.

www.interrail.eu

Germany
You can book your reservations for trains in Germany the following ways:

• Interrail Self-Service (in the Rail Planner app and on the website)

• Through the Rail Planner app
  • Via DB (German railways): domestic (IC and ICE) and international trains
  • Via ČD (Czech railways): domestic and international trains
  • Via DSB (Danish railways): international trains
  • Paper Pass only - Via SNCB (Belgian railways): international trains (Thalys)

• With the railway carriers
  • Via the ÖBB (Austrian railways) reservations tool: international train
  • Via the ČD (Czech railways) reservations tool: domestic and international trains
  • Via the DB (German railways) reservations tool: international trains

 

[rvdborgt]

And the Interrail web site (either on the German or France pages, which both list this service) doesn't give the DB web site as a method for making Interrail reservations.

That has no significance. There are more reservation methods they don't (yet) mention.

 

[AdamWW]

Supplement. You have made up that word in relation to these reservations. Nowhere are they referred to as anything other than reservations.

Oh right. I was explaining why I think it's effectively a supplement. You disagree. Fine.

How would you know that.

Well for one because the correct prices are listed on the Eurostar web site.

I can quite see that in this imaginary example someone might quite reasonably pay the incorrectly low charge without realising that it was wrong, and maybe they would be allowed to travel with it.

Going back to the DB case, given that there doesn't seem to be official advice from Interrail that the DB web site may be used to purchase the reservation that permits Interrail passes to be used on the trains in question, it's not so obvious that the customer would think it's OK.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Apr 2023 ==

That has no significance. There are more reservation methods they don't (yet) mention.

Sure but we're playing the "how does the clueless tourist know not to buy this ticket?" game. And our tourist has to be clued up enough to know they can get reservations from places other than the ones they're told they can...

Edited: Ok the Interrail web site does list DB as a method of making reservations if you look in the right place. Elsewhere it gives a much more restricted list.

 

[rvdborgt]

I also note that DB are selling €5 reservations on the Paris-Barcelona TGVs, which normally go for €50!

Get them while you can...

I did try, because I was tempted, but you don't get very far: "Reservierung nicht möglich". Same for TGVs to Brussels or domestic TGVs. For TGVs and ICEs between Germany and France though, you can get to the payment page.
BTW, Barcelona-Paris is now €35 in 1st and 2nd class.

 

[Flying Snail]

No, but UK reservations are just reservations (bar Sleeper berths) and we know that. We also know that TGVs are global fare trains and don't have simple reservations, and that these ICEs are not normal ICEs, and so that DB are issuing these wrongly. We also don't have the knowledge of German contract law to believe that this error would be resolved in the customer's favour.

Despite this you're advising people to play "clueless tourist" in order to save a tenner putting at risk a trip costing hundreds?

Incredibly, incredibly poor advice.

The vast vast majority using Interrail/Eurail are clueless tourists, already struggling with the bait-and-switch crookery perpetrated by Eurail and the likes of SNCF that the product already is.

How reasonable is it so suggest they should somehow understand a reservation offered by DB on a DB train is somehow wrong because it doesn't pass the imaginary SNCF passholder bilking test you are applying to the reservation cost.

Give the sanctimonious admonishments a rest too, I am not giving advice, just expressing an opinion on the topic.

 

[AdamWW]

Really?

Ah fine.

I was looking elsewhere on the Interrail web site which gave a much more restricted set of options.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The vast vast majority using Interrail/Eurail are clueless tourists, already struggling with the bait-and-switch crookery perpetrated by Eurail and the likes of SNCF that the product already is.

How reasonable is it so suggest they should somehow understand a reservation offered by DB on a DB train is somehow wrong because it doesn't pass the imaginary SNCF passholder bilking test you are applying to the reservation cost.

I don't disagree with you on how SNCF interact with InterRail. I've said before that they should either accept it properly (with a standard reservation at the same fee as they charge for optional reservations on those Corail services where they aren't compulsory) or withdraw. Same for other countries that take the mick e.g. Spain and (I think) Italy.

However I do think someone using these incorrectly issued reservations could end up with a lot of hassle, a bit like people who use obviously ridiculous UK loophole tickets, but without the benefit of knowledge of the relevant legislation.

 

[Flying Snail]

Ah fine.

I was looking elsewhere on the Interrail web site which gave a much more restricted set of options.

Interrail/Eurail is an utter mess. It is a complete minefield for anyone not well conversed in European railways.

There is a reason that the Eurail community https://community.eurail.com/ is constantly inundated with people who have bought the things on the PR fluff that it is an easy way to travel only to find that anything involving France, Spain, Italy, Eurostar, Thalys and a few others is a complete s*** show with utterly random reservation roadblocks put in place intentionally to stymie and frustrate these customers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interrail/Eurail is an utter mess. It is a complete minefield for anyone not well conversed in European railways.

There is a reason that the Eurail community https://community.eurail.com/ is constantly inundated with people who have bought the things on the PR fluff that it is an easy way to travel only to find that anything involving France, Spain, Italy, Eurostar, Thalys and a few others is a complete s*** show with utterly random reservation roadblocks put in place intentionally to stymie and frustrate these customers.

An interesting question is whether the EUR17 "proper" supplement type reservations on this service are quota controlled like SNCF do on other TGVs (aside from the number of actual seats available)?

 

[AdamWW]

An interesting question is whether the EUR17 "proper" supplement type reservations on this service are quota controlled like SNCF do on other TGVs (aside from the number of actual seats available)?

I thought the EUR20 domestic TGV supplement was (no longer?) quota controlled.

 

[rvdborgt]

Edited: Ok the Interrail web site does list DB as a method of making reservations if you look in the right place. Elsewhere it gives a much more restricted list.

The Interrail website is just one of the websites giving advice on where you can book reservations. The DB website is mentioned there (as you found out) but also elsewhere, e.g. on Seat61, which is a private, but still well-known website. In addition, the DB website is simply well-known for being able to issue "Seat only" reservations for many journeys in/from/to Germany, so many people who used it before, will be tempted to try it. As we indeed regularly see the Eurail community and the Interrail/Eurail Facebook group. This is also true for the ÖBB website.

An interesting question is whether the EUR17 "proper" supplement type reservations on this service are quota controlled like SNCF do on other TGVs (aside from the number of actual seats available)?

They're quota-controlled; pass holder seats sell out before the train is full.

I thought the EUR20 domestic TGV supplement was (no longer?) quota controlled.

AFAIK they never were. For domestic reservations, only the €10 ones are quota-controlled.

 

[Flying Snail]

I don't disagree with you on how SNCF interact with InterRail. I've said before that they should either accept it properly (with a standard reservation at the same fee as they charge for optional reservations on those Corail services where they aren't compulsory) or withdraw. Same for other countries that take the mick e.g. Spain and (I think) Italy.

Well that is something we can agree on then.

However I do think someone using these incorrectly issued reservations could end up with a lot of hassle, a bit like people who use obviously ridiculous UK loophole tickets, but without the benefit of knowledge of the relevant legislation.

If it was using some "clever" loophole to get the reservations I'd agree but this is getting a DB train reservation from DB we are talking about, it is nowhere near loophole territory.

An interesting question is whether the EUR17 "proper" supplement type reservations on this service are quota controlled like SNCF do on other TGVs (aside from the number of actual seats available)?

Apart from the €10/€20 thing, the quotas seem to be dropped from the Paris - Barcelona TGV and AFAIR there are no others on TGV services, Lyria is just insanely expensive but no quotas, just Thalys and Eurostar with quotas now but maybe I'm forgetting something.