Strasbourg to Frankfurt - reservations compulsory on ICE?

[rvdborgt]

Apart from the €10/€20 thing, the quotas seem to be dropped from the Paris - Barcelona TGV and AFAIR there are no others on TGV services, Lyria is just insanely expensive but no quotas, just Thalys and Eurostar with quotas now but maybe I'm forgetting something.

TGV/ICE Germany-France has a quota, TGV to Milan has a quota. TGVs to Brussels also have a quota, and very limited at that.
The quota on the TGV to Barcelona was dropped on 11/12/2022.
Edit: ECs Switzerland-Italy are also quota-controlled. Fun fact: no quota on Domodossola-Milan and you can travel without reservation to Domodossola. The same probably applies to Chiasso.

 

[Flying Snail]

TGV/ICE Germany-France has a quota, TGV to Milan has a quota. TGVs to Brussels also have a quota, and very limited at that.
The quota on the TGV to Barcelona was dropped on 11/12/2022.
Edit: ECs Switzerland-Italy are also quota-controlled. Fun fact: no quota on Domodossola-Milan and you can travel without reservation to Domodossola. The same probably applies to Chiasso.

Thanks.

I avoid international travel on TGV with interrail on principal as I disagree with paying SNCF extortionate reservation fees.

I will be in Milan for a few days next week, so will be dodging the EC supplements there.

 

[cactustwirly]

Perhaps a better analogy would the SNCB web site incorrectly selling a Eurostar reservation to an Interrail holder at the same rate as they do for regular trains.

I used the SNCB reservations without any problems

 

[Bletchleyite]

I used the SNCB reservations without any problems

On Eurostar? And you paid about EUR5 for it and not the passholder rate?

I'd say you were lucky.

 

[Starmill]

these ICEs are not normal ICEs

To be fair, that's something you've not posted any evidence for beyond it being your hunch based on your travels. Loads of international trains work in different ways to how you might prefer them to so I don't think that's a sensible reason to make this enormous claim.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Apr 2023 ==

The idea that passengers, foreign visitors at that, ought to have intimate knowledge of internal European rail politics to determine that a DB ICE train is really a TGV is just ridiculous.

Indeed. And I'd certainly dispute the claim "it's really a TGV".

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair, that's something you've not posted any evidence for beyond it being your hunch based on your travels. Loads of international trains work in different ways to how you might prefer them to so I don't think that's a sensible reason to make this enormous claim.

A proper ICE:

1. Does not have compulsory reservations (bar the emergency implementation planned for the Dutch ones this summer)
2. Has optional reservations costing around EUR5.50 I think
3. Has a restaurant car
4. Does not have free food in first class, though the restaurant menu is served at seat on request
5. Does not have global fares (reservation+ticket in one) other than (Super)Sparpreis which is equivalent to our Advances
6. Has a walk-up Flexpreis/Normalpreis which can be used on any train that day (edit: without reserving at all)

None of these are true of those specific ICEs (edit: Seat 61 seems to suggest there's no longer free food in 1st, though he is sometimes wrong). You'll probably find a discussion of it on here somewhere, but they have a dedicated service concept that was agreed as a halfway house to be basically the same between the TGVs and ICEs (barring that the food menu is a bit different due to different suppliers) because it's a joint DB-SNCF operation and not a competitive situation.

 

[superalbs]

A proper ICE:

1. Does not have compulsory reservations (bar the emergency implementation planned for the Dutch ones this summer)
2. Has optional reservations costing around EUR5.50 I think)
3. Has a restaurant car
4. Does not have free food in first class, though the restaurant menu is served at seat on request
5. Does not have global fares (reservation+ticket in one) other than (Super)Sparpreis which is equivalent to our Advances
6. Has a walk-up Flexpreis/Normalpreis which can be used on any train that day

None of these are true of those specific ICEs. You'll probably find a discussion of it on here somewhere, but they have a dedicated service concept that was agreed as a halfway house to be basically the same between the TGVs and ICEs (barring that the food menu is a bit different due to different suppliers) because it's a joint DB-SNCF operation and not a competitive situation.

The Paris-Germany ICE has a restaurant car, and no free food in First Class...

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Paris-Germany ICE has a restaurant car, and no free food in First Class...

That has, it seems, changed.

When the service was first set up, it was a joint operation with basically identical conditions between the two bar the rolling stock, and most of the service concept was pure TGV. It promoted quite a lot of discussion, though I forget how back it was and thus whether it was on here or the old uk.railway USENET newsgroup.

But we can debate as much as we like the differences, it is clear they are not normal ICEs other than domestically within Germany.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Apr 2023 ==

Indeed. And I'd certainly dispute the claim "it's really a TGV".

It was set up as a joint service concept but with two types of rolling stock. It does look like some of this has slipped, but it is not a normal ICE, and the correct reservation price is the EUR17 quoted by InterRail.

 

[Starmill]

most of the service concept was pure TGV.

Indeed - but with the 'concept' being in your head rather than something actually written down anywhere by anyone else, it would seem.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Apr 2023 ==

That has, it seems, changed.

Nearly all TGV services don't have free food either so I'm not sure what difference any of this makes?

 

[cactustwirly]

On Eurostar? And you paid about EUR5 for it and not the passholder rate?

I'd say you were lucky.

Well i can't remember if it was 5 euros. I think it was more like 10? I checked in with no issues at all

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Apr 2023 ==

Indeed - but with the 'concept' being in your head rather than something actually written down anywhere by anyone else, it would seem.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Apr 2023 ==


Nearly all TGV services don't have free food either so I'm not sure what difference any of this makes?

Do the trains have ICE or TGV codes when on France?

 

[Starmill]

Do the trains have ICE or TGV codes when on France?

Trains which use ICE sets have ICE numbers in both countries, and the trains which use TGV sets have TGV numbers in both countries.

 

[AdamWW]

But we can debate as much as we like the differences, it is clear they are not normal ICEs other than domestically within Germany.

It was set up as a joint service concept but with two types of rolling stock. It does look like some of this has slipped, but it is not a normal ICE, and the correct reservation price is the EUR17 quoted by InterRail.

Just looking at ticket prices, and from a quick play with the DB and SNCF web sites looking at the 8:56 Frankfurt to Paris services.....

On DB, it looks to me like any other DB long distance service, with Super Sparpreis, Sparpreis Europa and Flexpreis Europa fares available.
The Flexpreis is valid on any service on the chosen day, but the trains are reservation compulsory.

SNCF offers prem's or leisure tickets, and also a Business Seconde ticket. The Business Seconde seems to be valid only for one particular train but with free exchanges up to 30 minutes after the train leaves.

The Flexpreis and Business Seconde tickets are both €138 though the prices for the cheaper tickets don't seem to agree (each company has their own quota?)

So the main difference from domestic DB long distance services - at least if you buy from DB - actually seems to be only the fact that it's compulsory reservation.

The reservations sold are - presumably - for someone with a Flexpreis ticket who wants to change the train they travel on and therefore a valid thing to sell.

As for whether you should use it with an Interrail pass or not...

The Main in Seat 61 says the reservation fee is €18, quota controlled. I can't face looking at the Interrail web site and it probably won't tell me.

So I suspect (and do not insist because I am not an expert) that this reservation is not supposed to be valid with an Interrail pass.

Maybe through a loophole it is actually valid. I don't know. This seems an unusual situation.

What would happen if you tried it I don't know either.

And finally, after all that I've just tried using the "Seat only (no ticket)" option to just make a reservation on the DB web site and it won't let me. Maybe I'm missing something.

Edit: I've just remembered that the original post was about a different route. But Strasbourg to Frankfurt seems to work the same way, including my inability to extract a reservation on its own. Though the Man in Seat 61 doesn't seem to give the price for an Interrail reservation on this route.

 

[rvdborgt]

The Main in Seat 61 says the reservation fee is €18, quota controlled. I can't face looking at the Interrail web site and it probably won't tell me.

Interrail will say it's €17 + €2 booking fee.

And finally, after all that I've just tried using the "Seat only (no ticket)" option to just make a reservation on the DB web site and it won't let me. Maybe I'm missing something.

You missed that it's on next.bahn.de, which is a preview of DB's improved booking website.

 

[30907]

And finally, after all that I've just tried using the "Seat only (no ticket)" option to just make a reservation on the DB web site and it won't let me. Maybe I'm missing something.

Or maybe there is no way DB can actually issue a reservation-only on these routes as there are no fares that would be valid..
It is one of the quirks of the DB system that it will take you right through the booking process and fail at the last hurdle (not just in this particular circumstance).

Interrail will say it's €17 + €2 booking fee.

You missed that it's on next.bahn.de, which is a preview of DB's improved booking website.

Which might imply a bug in the new site, and the whole thread has been about a reservation that isn't actually obtainable anyway

Back to the Alleo co-operation - it is neither a pure TGV nor a pure ICE (though the rolling stock is one or the other), but a joint operation between companies that have fundamentally different fare structures - hence the agreement to have both systems issue tickets at inconsistent prices but with compulsory reservation however you book.

 

[AdamWW]

You missed that it's on next.bahn.de, which is a preview of DB's improved booking website.

I did. That was far too subtle for me.

Or maybe there is no way DB can actually issue a reservation-only on these routes as there are no fares that would be valid..
It is one of the quirks of the DB system that it will take you right through the booking process and fail at the last hurdle (not just in this particular circumstance).

Which might imply a bug in the new site, and the whole thread has been about a reservation that isn't actually obtainable anyway

Quite.

But it's been educational.

Now if DB really are selling Flexpreis tickets valid on any train on the chosen day, there needs to be a way of getting a new reservation. But maybe this is too much for the on-line system as perhaps they want confirmation you do have a suitable ticket and also maybe release the previous reservation if the train it's on hasn't run yet.

Maybe the new system is capable of that and that's why it offers it...

 

[rvdborgt]

Maybe the new system is capable of that and that's why it offers it...

In any case, the new online interface can do more than the current one, such as book reservations only for some trains with mandatory reservations, such as Hamburg-Copenhagen in summer and now also (Frankfurt/Basel-)Oberhausen-Amsterdam. Unfortunately not to Poland, it seems, but maybe they'll also implement those.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In any case, the new online interface can do more then the current one, such as book reservations only for some trains with mandatory reservations, such as Hamburg-Copenhagen in summer and now also (Frankfurt/Basel-)Oberhausen-Amsterdam. Unfortunately not to Poland, it seems, but maybe they'll also implement those.

Part of the issue they'll have to deal with there is global fare trains, where InterRail/Eurail and staff passes are the only things that need reservations, whereas regular international tickets aren't valid. Make it too easy and lots of people will rock up with the wrong ticket.

 

[AdamWW]

Part of the issue they'll have to deal with there is global fare trains, where InterRail/Eurail and staff passes are the only things that need reservations, whereas regular international tickets aren't valid. Make it too easy and lots of people will rock up with the wrong ticket.

Which is I believe why TGV Interrail reservations used to be possible on the SNCF web site (and also similarly with Trenitalia for global fare services?) and no longer are, and now you're pointed to the Interrail reservation service.

In any case, the new online interface can do more then the current one, such as book reservations only for some trains with mandatory reservations, such as Hamburg-Copenhagen in summer and now also (Frankfurt/Basel-)Oberhausen-Amsterdam. Unfortunately not to Poland, it seems, but maybe they'll also implement those.

I was going to say that the old one used to let you book Hamburg to Copenhagen. But looking it up it seems that my memory was at fault and I had to use DSB (makes sense - it was one of their trains). So that does sound like an improvement.

 

[30907]

Which is I believe why TGV Interrail reservations used to be possible on the SNCF web site (and also similarly with Trenitalia for global fare services?) and no longer are, and now you're pointed to the Interrail reservation service.

AIUI there were issues with fraudulent use of reservations without the appropriate ticket - the SNCF gates read the reservation not the pass (without flagging for a manual check?). TI gates don't (now) accept Interrail BTW.

 

[rvdborgt]

Which might imply a bug in the new site, and the whole thread has been about a reservation that isn't actually obtainable anyway

It is obtainable, price stays €4.50, also when booking connecting trains in Germany or from/to further east/north. I've read the first reports of people who booked. I'm sure we'll soon see the first reports from people who used them...

 

[Austriantrain]

1. Does not have compulsory reservations (bar the emergency implementation planned for the Dutch ones this summer)
2. Has optional reservations costing around EUR5.50 I think
3. Has a restaurant car
4. Does not have free food in first class, though the restaurant menu is served at seat on request
5. Does not have global fares (reservation+ticket in one) other than (Super)Sparpreis which is equivalent to our Advances
6. Has a walk-up Flexpreis/Normalpreis which can be used on any train that day (edit: without reserving at all)

None of these are true of those specific ICEs (edit: Seat 61 seems to suggest there's no longer free food in 1st, though he is sometimes wrong). You'll probably find a discussion of it on here somewhere, but they have a dedicated service concept that was agreed as a halfway house to be basically the same between the TGVs and ICEs (barring that the food menu is a bit different due to different suppliers) because it's a joint DB-SNCF operation and not a competitive situation.

The France-Germany ICE *and* TGV, within Germany, are normal German long-distance trains, usable in any way that is otherwise permissible for ICE trains.

The only question is, where „does Germany begin“. For the purpose of these trains, it seems that the section to the first station in Germany coming from France has been subjected to SNCF rules (which, since the tariff border is - I suspect, though I am not sure - at the real border, is not illegitimate).

 

[rvdborgt]

The France-Germany ICE *and* TGV, within Germany, are normal German long-distance trains, usable in any way that is otherwise permissible for ICE trains.

The only question is, where „does Germany begin“. For the purpose of these trains, it seems that the section to the first station in Germany coming from France has been subjected to SNCF rules (which, since the tariff border is - I suspect, though I am not sure - at the real border, is not illegitimate).

Operators of these trains are still SNCF and DB and the tariff borders are still Kehl(Gr) and Forbach(fr). The DB text planner will also still show that in the train details. The regular DB planner will show "Operator: SNCF, DB Fernverkehr AG" in the train details. Reservations are indeed mandatory from/to the first stop in Germany.