Strange results from trainsplit.com

[NigelH]

I'm looking to make a day trip from Reading to Purfleet, travelling off-peak both ways and using a Railcard.

As far as I can see, the cheapest option is a return Reading-Rainham (Essex) (£17.60) plus a return Rainham (Essex) to Purfleet (£4.05), making £21.65 in all.

All trains to/from Purfleet call at Rainham so that isn't an issue.

There are three sensible ways of connecting in London that I can see:

• Travel to Liverpool Street on the Elizabeth line and walk to Fenchurch Street
• Travel to Whitechapel on the Elizabeth line and then take the underground to West Ham,
• Travel to Liverpool Street on the Elizabeth line and take the underground to Fenchurch Street

(in all cases, potentially changing from GWR to the Elizabeth line at Paddington)

I can see no reason why those tickets should not be valid for all of them. However, trainsplit.com quotes a fare of £22.43 for some routes (which equates to my calculation above when you remove their commission) but £22.50 for others - and seems to think there are some combinations of outward and return journey where neither is valid!

The same seems to happen with fares to other stations on that route (e.g. West Ham), where some routes are quoted at the Travelcard fare and others at the return fare (which is a little lower).

Am I missing something, or is it simply that the website hasn't caught up with the Elizabeth line (which definitely seems true for the ATOC routeing guide)?

 

[Adam Williams]

So, just to ensure I've understood all this correctly:

Something like this is the search (just using the senior railcard as an example): https://v3.trainsplit.com/results?F...10:00&InboundTime=18:30&Adults=1&Railcard=SRN

The £22.50 fare is a combination of Reading to London Zones 1-6 (ODT) Restriction O9 applies at £18.45 + Rainham (Essex) to Purfleet (CDR) Restriction B1 applies at £4.05 = £22.50. The itinerary always involves a route using RDG -> PAD -> SRA -> WEH -> PFL, where PAD -> SRA is on the Elizabeth Line.

The £22.43 fare is a combination of Reading or Reading West to Rainham (Essex) (CDR) Restriction O9 applies at £17.60 (✠ cross-london marker) + Rainham (Essex) to Purfleet (CDR) Restriction B1 applies at £4.05 = £21.65 (as you observed) + 15% share of saving fee (based on a comparison to a Reading or Reading West to Purfleet (CDR) Restriction C4 applies at £26.85) of £0.78. The itinerary always involves RDG -> PAD -> WEH -> PFL (i.e. fewer changes, no Elizabeth line and use of a fixed link from PAD to WEH on the Tube, presumably on the Hammersmith & City).

The question is:

• Why is the £22.43 fare not always offered / why does an itinerary involving the Elizabeth line seem to always require the £22.50 fare?

Is that correct?

 

[NigelH]

Firstly, thanks for the reply; it's interesting that trainsplit.com lets you see the route whereas splitticketing.com doesn't (until you buy the ticket). However, the two sites come up with different combinations of trains, and different again from the National Rail website! Nevertheless, I think your analysis is correct, though it raises another question: both of those options involve split tickets, so why is the 15% charge only added to one of them?

Incidentally, National Rail always uses the Elizabeth Line for at least part of the journey but has another peculiarity: it claims you can walk from Liverpool Street to Fenchurch Street in 4 minutes whereas Google says it's more like 15 minutes.

 

[Kilopylae]

it claims you can walk from Liverpool Street to Fenchurch Street in 4 minutes

Maybe running

 

[yorkie]

There appears to be an issue with using Crossrail and Tube modes for a cross-London transfer.

For journeys where there is only one of these modes for the cross-London transfer, the through ticket is valid (which means anything less than that will incur the share of saving fee), and likewise the Reading to Rainham ticket (in conjunction with Rainham to Purfleet) will also be valid.

For journeys where both modes are required, this is deemed to be invalid and therefore there is no through fare and no fee will be charged. The fares offered include a Travelcard, which gets you a huge amount of additional validity. In this case the additional validity isn't actually required, but it gets around what appears to be a bug.

Incidentally, National Rail always uses the Elizabeth Line for at least part of the journey but has another peculiarity: it claims you can walk from Liverpool Street to Fenchurch Street in 4 minutes whereas Google says it's more like 15 minutes.

As detailed in other threads, the time between stations cannot be taken in isolation; it is added to the connectional allowance at both ends, to create a total interchange time of 26 minutes.

It can be difficult for journey planners to show this concept in a way that doesn't cause confusion.

 

[Kilopylae]

For journeys where both modes are required, this is deemed to be invalid and therefore there is no through fare and no fee will be charged.

Maybe the Elizabeth line and the Tube are coded as separate fixed links (each known to connect A, B, C etc to X, Y, Z)?

It would make sense that the system cannot fathom an "interchange" between two fixed links.

 

[Haywain]

Maybe the Elizabeth line and the Tube are coded as separate fixed links (each known to connect A, B, C etc to X, Y, Z)?

The Elizabeth Line is timetabled rather than being a fixed link, but I suspect the problem is more about the bodge that's had to be done to give appropriate reults for ticketing on the core section. Yet another result of it being underground but not underground!

 

[Kilopylae]

Ah – that makes sense.

A mess indeed!

 

[yorkie]

Indeed Crossrail has to be treated as if it were a 'Tube' link between Paddington and Liverpool Street/Abbey Wood; the trains are timetabled so that's just for fares validity purposes.

(see also: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/restriction-code-1a-chelmsford-to-heathrow.240324/#post-5960134 !)

 

[SickyNicky]

The Elizabeth Line is timetabled rather than being a fixed link, but I suspect the problem is more about the bodge that's had to be done to give appropriate reults for ticketing on the core section. Yet another result of it being underground but not underground!

Spot on, I think. It makes it 2 tube journeys, which is normally not valid on a cross London ticket. We'll get a fix out - thanks for letting us know.

 

[Class800]

Spot on, I think. It makes it 2 tube journeys, which is normally not valid on a cross London ticket. We'll get a fix out - thanks for letting us know.

Depends how you define 2 tube journeys, but I've certainly (from a TOC site) been offered a Maltese cross ticket with Waterloo to Kings Cross on the tube, which requires a change on the tube (at Bank, Euston or Warren Street) and that wasn't an issue.

 

[SickyNicky]

Depends how you define 2 tube journeys, but I've certainly (from a TOC site) been offered a Maltese cross ticket with Waterloo to Kings Cross on the tube, which requires a change on the tube (at Bank, Euston or Warren Street) and that wasn't an issue.

That's conceptually one leg - the tube from Waterloo to Kings Cross. Whereas using Crossrail is conceptually two legs (one on Crossrail and one on the tube). We're on it, anyway.

 

[Kilopylae]

It makes it 2 tube journeys, which is normally not valid on a cross London ticket.

That's conceptually one leg - the tube from Waterloo to Kings Cross. Whereas using Crossrail is conceptually two legs (one on Crossrail and one on the tube).

This is roughly what I was (badly) getting at above so I'm interested to see that that is how it works.

Did Thameslink ever create the same problems?

 

[SickyNicky]

Did Thameslink ever create the same problems?

Thameslink is a national rail service for fares purposes, so no issues.

 

[Kilopylae]

Oh - so an inter-termimal Maltese cross link can include an interchange from NR (i.e. Thameslink) to tube, but not more than one journey (i.e. two tube journeys - which is how it interprets an interchange from XR to tube) ?

 

[SickyNicky]

Oh - so an inter-termimal Maltese cross link can include an interchange from NR (i.e. Thameslink) to tube, but not more than one journey (i.e. two tube journeys - which is how it interprets an interchange from XR to tube) ?

This is to stop an itinerary that had a tube leg, then a rail leg, then another tube leg.

 

[Kilopylae]

Ah. That makes sense. Thank you for explaining!

 

[AlbertBeale]

Depends how you define 2 tube journeys, but I've certainly (from a TOC site) been offered a Maltese cross ticket with Waterloo to Kings Cross on the tube, which requires a change on the tube (at Bank, Euston or Warren Street) and that wasn't an issue.

Or, quickest of all in my experience, changing at Oxford Circus! (Going on the Drain via Bank must be the slowest of all, given the lengthy interchange at Bank...)

 

[Class800]

Or, quickest of all in my experience, changing at Oxford Circus! (Going on the Drain via Bank must be the slowest of all, given the lengthy interchange at Bank...)

Before joining here, I always changed at Bank when making that journey - unless the W&C was closed in which case I changed at Euston or even London Bridge. I never thought of Oxford Circus or Warren Street but they are probably best

 

[357]

I do this change from Paddington onto c2c frequently.

I now go via Whitechapel - however if I need to go from exactly Fenchurch Street to Paddington I actually walk to Aldgate and get any train heading west (even a Metropolitan line. Changing between Liverpool Street and Great Portland Street will result in waiting on the same platform for either a Circle or a Hammersmith & City line train).

 

[paul1609]

Thameslink is a national rail service for fares purposes, so no issues.

Thameslink West Hampstead to London Bridge/ Elephant & Castle is an interavailable route and also considered part of zone u1. So you can use either NR or LU/DLR tickets.

 

[A Challenge]

Before joining here, I always changed at Bank when making that journey - unless the W&C was closed in which case I changed at Euston or even London Bridge. I never thought of Oxford Circus or Warren Street but they are probably best

Oxford Circus is a cross-platform transfer for Waterloo to Kings Cross and return, so is probably the easiest (think it's also the quickest).

 

[AlbertBeale]

Oxford Circus is a cross-platform transfer for Waterloo to Kings Cross and return, so is probably the easiest (think it's also the quickest).

From reaching the Bakerloo platform at Waterloo, to heading off the Victoria platform at Kings Cross to go up the escalator to the mainline, can be under 15 minutes if you catch each tube with minimal waiting time. And any spare seconds at the interchange can be usefully spent walking from the front to the rear of the Vic N/B platform [the front is where you get the quickest interchange off the Bakerloo you've arrived on] ready to leave the Vic platform at KX from the "south" end [ie ignoring the signs via the new interchange tunnels which send you a much longer distance for almost all destinations than the original route].

 

[yorkie]

The issue is fixed now

I also note that at weekends there is a slightly bigger saving to be made, as a Super Off Peak Day Return (CBA) is available from Rainham (it's also the same price to split at Dagenham Docks).