Strange Historical Timetables

[Ballyheigue]

I've recently seen a Leeds Bus Timetable book from the late 70s, and inside is a timetable for the 34 and 35 Leeds to Alwoodley services. Within the Saturday 35 timetable, there are a large number of additional one way short workings between Leeds and King Lane between midday and 2pm and then from around 4pm to 6pm, however there aren't any AM short workings into Leeds on the 34, to me it doesn't make any sense. I could maybe understand if these short workings terminated at Scott Hall Roundabout to get people who have walked into town back up the hill, but to have no AM short workings as an addition to the timetable towards Leeds, and shed loads from Leeds makes no sense, where did all the additional passengers come from lol.

Are there any other examples elsewhere of strange workings in historical timetables that don't make sense?

 

[Leedsbusman]

I've recently seen a Leeds Bus Timetable book from the late 70s, and inside is a timetable for the 34 and 35 Leeds to Alwoodley services. Within the Saturday 35 timetable, there are a large number of additional one way short workings between Leeds and King Lane between midday and 2pm and then from around 4pm to 6pm, however there aren't any AM short workings into Leeds on the 34, to me it doesn't make any sense. I could maybe understand if these short workings terminated at Scott Hall Roundabout to get people who have walked into town back up the hill, but to have no AM short workings as an addition to the timetable towards Leeds, and shed loads from Leeds makes no sense, where did all the additional passengers come from lol.

Are there any other examples elsewhere of strange workings in historical timetables that don't make sense?

Inbound trips may have been run as duplicates. Plenty of that went on in those days with timetables often showing a minimum service level.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I've recently seen a Leeds Bus Timetable book from the late 70s, and inside is a timetable for the 34 and 35 Leeds to Alwoodley services. Within the Saturday 35 timetable, there are a large number of additional one way short workings between Leeds and King Lane between midday and 2pm and then from around 4pm to 6pm, however there aren't any AM short workings into Leeds on the 34, to me it doesn't make any sense. I could maybe understand if these short workings terminated at Scott Hall Roundabout to get people who have walked into town back up the hill, but to have no AM short workings as an addition to the timetable towards Leeds, and shed loads from Leeds makes no sense, where did all the additional passengers come from lol.

Are there any other examples elsewhere of strange workings in historical timetables that don't make sense?

Ordinarily, I’d suggest a sporting venue on a Saturday afternoon OR a hospital. However, might it also be religious - Saturday, large Jewish population??

 

[Ballyheigue]

Ordinarily, I’d suggest a sporting venue on a Saturday afternoon OR a hospital. However, might it also be religious - Saturday, large Jewish population??

The latter reason is a possibility as the upper parts of Scott Hall Road do have a number of Jewish residents and the 35 runs via Street Lane and Moortown Corner close to the Synagogue's up that way. If anyone knows if Synagogue's had 2 separate services on a Saturday (one around 2pm and the other around 6pm) then that's most likely the explanation.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

The latter reason is a possibility as the upper parts of Scott Hall Road do have a number of Jewish residents and the 35 runs via Street Lane and Moortown Corner close to the Synagogue's up that way. If anyone knows if Synagogue's had 2 separate services on a Saturday (one around 2pm and the other around 6pm) then that's most likely the explanation.

Except Jews aren't ordinarily supposed to use buses or public transport on Saturdays...

 

[joieman]

Not really historical, but Arriva's service 127 from Shepshed to Leicester has one departure on schoolday mornings that begins in Coalville before running to Shepshed to continue to Leicester, which exists via a convoluted sequence of service changes over the years:

Originally, the 127 ran every 30 minutes between Leicester and Shepshed on weekdays, combined with the 126 that alternately also terminated in Shepshed or continued to Coalville every half-hour. However, about ten years ago, the daytime service 126 was scrapped, replaced by additional journeys of the 127 and a separate number 16 service between Loughborough and Coalville, with the 126 only operating on weekday evenings.

A few years later, complaints of overcrowding on the 16 towards Loughborough in the mornings resulted in the introduction of an additional run of the service 126 towards Leicester only on schoolday mornings, leaving Coalville in tandem with the once-daily service X16 that avoids Shepshed town centre. Students at Charnwood College or the De Lisle school were directed to use the 126, while students attending Loughborough College were to use the X16.

Finally, last year or so, the evening journeys of the 126 were withdrawn altogether, also replaced by extra journeys on the 16 and 127; simultaneously, the said morning departure of the 126 was renumbered as part of the 127.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Except Jews aren't ordinarily supposed to use buses or public transport on Saturdays...

I profess ignorance on my own religion let alone anyone else’s.

Clearly there was something that could justify extra runs out of the city and then back in 2/3 hours later

 

[Ballyheigue]

I profess ignorance on my own religion let alone anyone else’s.

Clearly there was something that could justify extra runs out of the city and then back in 2/3 hours later

Sorry, just to clarify both sets of additional runs were from Leeds with none to Leeds, but if Jewish people aren't allowed to travel on public transport to the Synagogue on a Saturday then it put's us back at square one lol. I'm now wondering if it was to use up drivers contracted hours as in they are paid for 40 hours and have a rota only using 36 hours so these runs were created to make up 40 hours?

 

[GusB]

My local route ran half-hourly extras on Saturday afternoons to cater for extra traffic. From what I recall it was mainly shoppers, although numbers were boosted by pupils from Gordonstoun School being let out in public. There would have been some football traffic as well.

I can't speak for Leeds, but around here many small businesses closed on a weekday afternoon with staff working Saturday mornings to make up their working week. That would leave Saturday afternoons and Sundays as the only real family time. Sunday shopping wasn't really a thing back then, so Saturday afternoon might have been the only opportunity for some families to buy clothing, shoes etc.

We were never big cinema-goers, but whenever I was taken to see a film, it was usually the Saturday matineé (with a visit to Woolies for pick'n'mix on the way). Video recorders were available but expensive and didn't really become commonplace in people's homes until the 1980s. .

Regarding the extra Leeds journeys only going in one direction, could it simply be that you'd have Saturday morning workers finishing around lunchtime, then you'd have a similar peak in the afternoon for those who worked the full day, in addition to those people going home after shopping, football, cinema etc.? There wouldn't necessarily be the same requirement for inbound capacity.

I'm not at all familiar with the area and I'm possibly talking rubbish, but it's just a thought.

 

[Tim33160]

In Salford, the 613 ran around Sedgley Park and Broughton A and B circulars
It ran commercially Su - Fri - not S or PH: with differing times during Jewish Festivals

Douglas Valley Transport was based at Horwich in Bolton - so an amount of dead running from the depot

https://www.railwaymedia.co.uk/Timetables has a leaflet dated 27 October 2003

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RT8nL0jpU97_-coOv6ofmVx96sEZlpXJ/view

Not sure of the significance of the number 613 - as 6xx routes were all Wigan based

 

[andyb87]

Sorry, just to clarify both sets of additional runs were from Leeds with none to Leeds, but if Jewish people aren't allowed to travel on public transport to the Synagogue on a Saturday then it put's us back at square one lol. I'm now wondering if it was to use up drivers contracted hours as in they are paid for 40 hours and have a rota only using 36 hours so these runs were created to make up 40 hours?

Back in the 1950s Leeds built many new housing estates beyond the high frequency tram/ replacement bus limits. To preserve space for the longer distance travellers at peak times from the city centre, Limited Stop alighting was applied to many of these longer routes, the tram or its bus replacement serving shorter riders. Scott Hall Road was unique in having just a combination of outer suburban routes (34/35,37/43,69 and 70) so most of these were limited to King Lane and beyond with extra shorts added for shorter riders passengers. These were timetabled to organise passengers, whilst in the morning it was just inward duplicates. The Saturday lunchtime extra provision merely reflects that the industrial working week was five and a half days at that time so there was an outward peak after workers finished at Saturday lunchtime.

 

[Springs Branch]

For a time in the late 1960s & early 70s, Lancashire United's Service 38 (Manchester, Westhoughton & Wigan) ran a couple of short journeys in the early hours of Sunday morning along the A6 between Swinton and Little Hulton.

You might say "Night Buses were not that unusual in industrial cities back in the day", and both Manchester & Salford certainly had long-established All Night Services at the time.

But for LUT, and very many similar provincial operators around the country, it was highly unusual to have any stage carriage buses on the road beyond midnight, barring one or two stragglers running back to the garage. Certainly not services which started their journeys in the small hours.

These buses (0015 & 0115 Swinton - Little Hulton and 0035 & 0135 Little Hulton - Swinton) did not run on weekday mornings - only in the early hours of Sunday - so not intended for industrial shift workers. I could never understand why there was enough demand to serve the 'bright lights' of 1970s Walkden!

However, it seems the 38's departure times from Swinton were nicely timed to connect out of the Salford / Selnec All Night buses from Manchester.

Of course, this handy facility was not mentioned at all in the LUT timetables - so as a Saturday night reveller, you'd be expected to 'just know' the arrangement of bus services.
Presumably LUT did not do what Selnec did and charge double fares in the early hours of the morning.

Anyhow, by 1973 Selnec had extended many of its Night Service routes, the A6 beyond Swinton to Walkden & Little Hulton got direct night buses between Manchester and Bolton seven nights a week, and the early morning journeys on the 38 disappeared.

 

[daodao]

In Salford, the 613 ran around Sedgley Park and Broughton A and B circulars
It ran commercially Su - Fri - not S or PH: with differing times during Jewish Festivals

Douglas Valley Transport was based at Horwich in Bolton - so an amount of dead running from the depot

https://www.railwaymedia.co.uk/Timetables has a leaflet dated 27 October 2003

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RT8nL0jpU97_-coOv6ofmVx96sEZlpXJ/view

Not sure of the significance of the number 613 - as 6xx routes were all Wigan based

The services also didn't run on Friday afternoons after 1400 as well, i.e. just before the Sabbath eve. The number 613 has particular significance in Judaism - it is the total number of commandments.

I note that the services didn't last very long, presumably as the distances covered were very short. Orthodox Jewish communities tend to be fairly compact, to minimise walking distances on the Sabbath, when vehicular transport can't be used.

 

[nw1]

Regarding the extra Leeds journeys only going in one direction, could it simply be that you'd have Saturday morning workers finishing around lunchtime, then you'd have a similar peak in the afternoon for those who worked the full day, in addition to those people going home after shopping, football, cinema etc.? There wouldn't necessarily be the same requirement for inbound capacity.hat

That does accord with my experiences of contemporary Saturday bus loading. Can be incredibly busy out of town around 5pm as people finish shopping etc but there is no equivalent inbound peak, with people arriving in drips and drabs. Not so sure about the midday out of town journeys, though.

 

[Mark L]

Except Jews aren't ordinarily supposed to use buses or public transport on Saturdays...

Whilst the observant orthodox community will not use public transport on the Shabbat reform and secular Jews do want to travel and reform Judaism is fairly relaxed about this - this article describes the reaction to the introduction of a bus service in Tel Aviv on Saturday a few years ago - https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/dec/28/secular-israel-sabbath-buses .

For the observant there are many reasons why the use of public transport may be seen as breaking the "rules" - these include working, travelling more than 2,000 cubits from your city, making fire (the bus has an internal combustion engine or may be powered by electricity from a thermal power station) and handling money. El-Al, the Israeli airline, does not operate on the Sabbath.

At the end of the day it's all down to interpretation! There are parts of Scotland where the influence of certain churches meant that ferries didn't operate on Sundays until recently and in parts of Wales pubs weren't allowed to open on Sundays until 1996 largely thanks to the influence of the non-conformist chapels.