Strange Behaviour of Sprinter Lights

[jfowkes]

A few times now I've noticed that the Sprinters I get home from work have this weird thing they do when approaching the station. (I didn't note the exact class of Sprinter)

Basically, the "doors are unlocked" sidelights (I don't know the correct term) flash once, very briefly, when the train is pulling in, still moving. The lights in the driver's cab were also briefly turned on I think.

What's going on here?

 

[Saperstein]

BIL - Body indicator light IIRC

Saperstein

 

[fgwrich]

I believe it will usually flash briefly where the guard has "keyed in", indicating which coach the door panel has been activated in.

 

[tsr]

This happens on a number of different types of units when different keys are switched in (guards’ or drivers’ keys). It’s usually something to do with engaging power to the door controls and/or proving certain circuits are functional. Interestingly, if units are in multiple, it often only affects the unit where the crew “key on”.

 

[Neptune]

I believe it will usually flash briefly where the guard has "keyed in", indicating which coach the door panel has been activated in.

Yes the Hazard light (only a BIL on the 195/331 until told its extended to the rest of the fleet at Northern) flashes once when the DKS is turned on and once when it is turned off after departure.

 

[Llama]

I was always under the impression that this was more of a 'false feed', in the same way that certain lights on the cab desk used to very briefly, and dimly, flash when certain controls were operated such as the PA light flashing slightly when the power controller was moved or an AWS warning acknowledged.

The hazard lights flickering once when the DKS is switched on is surely too brief to be an intentional indication to anyone.

Edit, and also - while the rulebook refers to 'external orange hazard lights' should they really be referred to operationally as BILs? If you ring the signaller and tell them you've got/seen a BIL lit I'm pretty sure they'll be pretty nonplussed. But everyone whose seen TW5 module knows what an external orange hazard light is.

 

[Neptune]

Yes I’ve always been led to believe it’s something to do with the circuit being activated/deactivated.

 

[driver9000]

I was always under the impression that this was more of a 'false feed', in the same way that certain lights on the cab desk used to very briefly, and dimly, flash when certain controls were operated such as the PA light flashing slightly when the power controller was moved or an AWS warning acknowledged.

The hazard lights flickering once when the DKS is switched on is surely too brief to be an intentional indication to anyone.

Edit, and also - while the rulebook refers to 'external orange hazard lights' should they really be referred to operationally as BILs? If you ring the signaller and tell them you've got/seen a BIL lit I'm pretty sure they'll be pretty nonplussed. But everyone whose seen TW5 module knows what an external orange hazard light is.

That was also my understanding of 15x hazard lights. A similar glitch occurs when coupled to a 14x when emergency is selected - the hazard lights on the Pacer would illuminate.

 

[Llama]

Yes, that glitch on 14xs coupled to 15xs has been known about pretty much since they were both new. Northern's eastern based driver managers reported the fact as though it was new information a few years ago through 'cabs' magazine.

 

[ComUtoR]

I was always under the impression that this was more of a 'false feed', in the same way that certain lights on the cab desk used to very briefly, and dimly, flash when certain controls were operated such as the PA light flashing slightly when the power controller was moved or an AWS warning acknowledged.

I had a weird fault the other day where the door release buttons suddenly came on at 70mph. A quick change of underwear and a call to fleet and they stated that it was due to water ingress.

Do Sprinters have SSF (speed sensing) ? On ours the doors can only be release when under 6mph so you often get a clicking sound when the circuit activates. Could this cause a momentary flash of a BIL ?

Edit, and also - while the rulebook refers to 'external orange hazard lights' should they really be referred to operationally as BILs? If you ring the signaller and tell them you've got/seen a BIL lit I'm pretty sure they'll be pretty nonplussed. But everyone whose seen TW5 module knows what an external orange hazard light is.

I've never had an issue when calling it a BIL. Most of our Signallers are pretty clued up and are quite familiar with various traction faults and indeed, local terminology.

 

[Llama]

It must be that then, local terminology. But while the rule book has a name for them I'll use that, same hymn sheet and all that so there's a reduced risk of confusion.

There is a 'low speed relay' on Sprinter stock (I'm pretty sure all units have to have some kind of speed sensing function). It has several functions. As to whether it would inhibit door release above 5mph - which is the speed you hear it click when starting away or stopping even though it's meant to be 3mph IIRC - I've no idea and it'd need an accomodating letter from ops standards dept before I'd be willing to try that one. You might well be right though, I've just never really considered it.

 

[northernbelle]

This happens on a number of different types of units when different keys are switched in (guards’ or drivers’ keys). It’s usually something to do with engaging power to the door controls and/or proving certain circuits are functional. Interestingly, if units are in multiple, it often only affects the unit where the crew “key on”.

Sounds right to me - I've noticed it's all the hazard lights on the relevant unit rather than just the vehicle in which the guard has keyed in. The hazard lights won't operate at all until the driver's desk is keyed in on some units - specifically 150s - at terminal stations they'll extinguish while the driver is changing ends until they key in again.

 

[Sprinter107]

The hazard lights on a 150/1 always stayed on when the driver keyed out, but the 150/2 extinguished. I've had passengers force the doors open on 150s when travelling at speed. It just gives an emergency brake application.

 

[Llama]

Yes there's no doubt that door interlock being lost on 150s gives an emergency brake application. The only sprinter stock that didn't have door/brake interlock were 155s until about five years ago.

 

[northernbelle]

Yes there's no doubt that door interlock being lost on 150s gives an emergency brake application. The only sprinter stock that didn't have door/brake interlock were 155s until about five years ago.

I don't think 156s had interlock when they were new either - I have certainly seen a video of a 156 running into a platform with the guard stood at an open door. Not sure about 150/2s.

 

[D365]

The only sprinter stock that didn't have door/brake interlock were 155s until about five years ago.

Was/Is this the case with the Class 153s also?

 

[Ashley Hill]

150/2s never had door/brake when i first worked them. Opening a door in motion would only cut the power.
You could happily open your crew door when pulling into a station. Later when the interlock was added we'd write "modified" above the control panel to prevent sudden stops coming into platforms.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Was/Is this the case with the Class 153s also?

153 always had door/brake interlock from the day they were modified. I'm sure 155s had it from new too.

 

[Llama]

155s, or at least the WYPTE 155s, only had door/brake interlock from a modification programme which began about five years ago. 150/156 didn't have it from new but were modified in the 90s iirc.

153s had it from when they were created from the 155s I think.

 

[Scotrail84]

150/2s never had door/brake when i first worked them. Opening a door in motion would only cut the power.
You could happily open your crew door when pulling into a station. Later when the interlock was added we'd write "modified" above the control panel to prevent sudden stops coming into platforms.

Working the last trains going down the platform with local door open, nobody waiting and nobody getting off. Close local door buzz buzz and away.

 

[R G NOW.]

On the subject of strange lights?. How about this. The TRTS plunger pressed at Cheltenham station, the signal moves to amber and brings up a white pygmy light in the cupboard. Then when the RA plunger is pressed the light goes out and when plunger released comes on. It obviously goes out when the signal moves back to red. Very strange.

 

[43096]

On the subject of strange lights?. How about this. The TRTS plunger pressed at Cheltenham station, the signal moves to amber and brings up a white pygmy light in the cupboard. Then when the RA plunger is pressed the light goes out and when plunger released comes on. It obviously goes out when the signal moves back to red. Very strange.

Amber? It’s yellow on the railway.

 

[jfowkes]

Just realised I didn't say thanks for all these replies, so yeah - thanks! This was informative.

 

[IamTrainsYT]

I've had passengers force the doors open on 150s when travelling at speed. It just gives an emergency brake application.

That just shows how smart the UK population is...

 

[LowLevel]

It must be that then, local terminology. But while the rule book has a name for them I'll use that, same hymn sheet and all that so there's a reduced risk of confusion.

There is a 'low speed relay' on Sprinter stock (I'm pretty sure all units have to have some kind of speed sensing function). It has several functions. As to whether it would inhibit door release above 5mph - which is the speed you hear it click when starting away or stopping even though it's meant to be 3mph IIRC - I've no idea and it'd need an accomodating letter from ops standards dept before I'd be willing to try that one. You might well be right though, I've just never really considered it.

Class 158 should not open the doors without the low speed relay having picked except by operation of the crew valve which bypasses the door controls - I think. That said the emergency egress has a timer set to allow the train to stop before it pops the doors (on modified stock notable because it still sounds the original hustle arm when pressed!) which you wouldn't think it would need if the low speed relay suppresses the door release. I'm going to stick with you and not try to find out but I will ask a tame engineer

153 and 156 certainly will. We nearly lost a guard once reinstating an isolated 153 door on the move (against the rules) and as the crew door panel had been operated at some point it flew open at 60 mph. The guard had been almost leaning against the door given where the isolating switch is located and was quite badly shaken - she very nearly fell out of the train. Hence the instruction on class 153 to operate the crew panel switch to close before attempting to reinstate a door.

 

[Llama]

I wondered if the 158 door was on an electronic timer (or timing relay), or if the air pressure to the door was drained at a measured rate acting as the 'timer'. The latter would be slightly unusual but I'm sure that's what I've read somewhere along the years.

Re 153s, I do remember a very specific instruction coming out about 15 years ago explicitly saying not to key in a DKS on the move in a 153, I always assumed it was to do with an incident that happened at our TOC but I suppose it could have been triggered by an USA after an incident elsewhere, and that might fit the bill.

Edit, 156s were another common one, in Standedge Tunnel on the way back from Huddersfield to Manchester on the stoppers. If a 156 was the back set of two units the guards would lock it out at Huddersfield in arrival from its inbound working. Someone would come along and press the door open button to try to board, the door would try to open against the lock, admitting air pressure into the door mechanism. Later on at Marsden the guard would usually hop in the back set to unlock it for Greenfield onwards, where the platforms were longer. If there was still air pressure in the door piston it could pop the door open when the guard unlocked it leading to a few brown trouser moments in the tunnel. Last time I think I had it happen it was a guards manager, funnily enough they didn't admit to it and denied all knowledge...