Stranded person and dead milage running

[BestWestern]

Thats a crap company then isn't. Surly the traffic office in the depot would still be open. If its a council route phone the council...

But again, what are they likely to do? If they've cancelled it, they've cancelled it. They're very unlikely to change their mind because an intending passenger calls in to complain.

On the subject of insurance, some of the larger groups are self-insured, so presumably can cover or exclude what they wish. One such operator certainly had a strict 'no passengers if not in service' rule a few years ago, though the reasons behind it weren't routinely explained.

When free concessionary passes first came in, a paper ticket was issued from the machine for each journey, in the same way it would be for a normal cash fare. There was an understanding that the reason for this was because a passenger had to be issued with a ticket in order to be bound by the relevant conditions of travel.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thats a crap company then isn't. Surly the traffic office in the depot would still be open. If its a council route phone the council...

In which case, most would be crap. Very few depots are of the size where the traffic office is manned of an evening and certainly not if there's an independent. Got to remember that in many areas, there are relatively few vehicles out in an evening and even the bigger operators will only have resource (if any) in their largest depots.

 

[northwichcat]

Before GHA Coaches went in to administration, when they were having driver shortages it wasn't unknown for drivers to take passengers to stops on the way to the depot opposed to leaving them waiting for a bus which wasn't going to turn up.

 

[northwichcat]

In which case, most would be crap. Very few depots are of the size where the traffic office is manned of an evening and certainly not if there's an independent. Got to remember that in many areas, there are relatively few vehicles out in an evening and even the bigger operators will only have resource (if any) in their largest depots.

In 2017 it's not exactly hard to have an out of office hours emergency number and for some manager to be on call to deal with any emergencies which come up, even if they don't want to pay someone to man an office for a few hours in the evening when they usually don't get any calls.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In 2017 it's not exactly hard to have an out of office hours emergency number and for some manager to be on call to deal with any emergencies which come up, even if they don't want to pay someone to man an office for a few hours in the evening when they usually don't get any calls.

In practice, that's what does happen. There's an emergency number in case of breakdowns etc - drivers aren't left at the roadside until the following day!! However, that isn't what was said!

 

[Bletchleyite]

In which case, most would be crap.

You know what I'm going to say there

An operational control centre is an essential for proper, reliable operation and accurate passenger information - things that many bus operators (particularly the small ones) simply don't give a monkey's about.

 

[northwichcat]

In practice, that's what does happen. There's an emergency number in case of breakdowns etc - drivers aren't left at the roadside until the following day!! However, that isn't what was said!

I was meaning one passengers can call if their bus doesn't show up as well as one drivers can call.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I was meaning one passengers can call if their bus doesn't show up as well as one drivers can call.

The reality is that such cover is not provided for customers (and for europhiles amongst us - it doesn't generally happen in Europe either) and for very good reasons.

Think about it - you ring up for the last bus at 2330 hrs.

There is an expectation that you can talk to someone.... and you can ask them for what? Confirmation that the bus is delayed/cancelled (which real time tracking could provide anyway).

What else? An idea about a replacement vehicle? Given that in many areas, recovery will be devolved to a recovery firm (with a wrecker), a replacement bus may not be the option! Even if it is, there will be a considerable delay and most folks simply head off anyway.

Also, this manager sat by the phone.... they will want paying for the previlege. All this for the very rare instance of it happening and at a time when evening services are under the greatest pressure.

 

[Busaholic]

That seems to confirm my feeling that insurance issues are not a red herring.

We were told that the cost of the extra insurance made the idea a non-starter, and, I believe, that has been shown to be a red herring i.e. extra cost, if any, negligible.

 

[northwichcat]

If you know the last bus is cancelled then you know the last bus isn't an option. If you don't know then do you go to the expense of booking a taxi when the last bus is actually 35 minutes late?

Someone being on call to take emergency calls doesn't need paying as much as someone working regardless of whether there's any work - that's the whole point!

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is an expectation that you can talk to someone.... and you can ask them for what? Confirmation that the bus is delayed/cancelled (which real time tracking could provide anyway).

The useful piece of information is which of those it is. If it's half an hour late because of traffic congestion earlier on it may be worth waiting for it depending on how you value your time at that particular moment. If it's sat at a stop broken down you might as well call a taxi or start walking.

Of course RTPI can tell you that if it's working. Though the trouble with that is that if it's not being tracked you can't tell if it's running or not. Bus companies are not good at entering "cancelled" on the systems (assuming they even support it - some of them definitely do though as I've seen it) even when the control is staffed during the day.

 

[jon0844]

In 2017 it's not exactly hard to have an out of office hours emergency number and for some manager to be on call to deal with any emergencies which come up, even if they don't want to pay someone to man an office for a few hours in the evening when they usually don't get any calls.

My local bus company is hard enough to contact during the hours it says it is open - after around 5pm you can forget it. I ended up getting another number to contact them on - but that is often unanswered too so I have long realised that there is no method of contact. Twitter isn't manned all day/night and the council 'intalink' service on Twitter can take days for a response, so not really usable for 'the last bus didn't show, where is it?' queries.

Drivers must have a different contact number again, as they don't have radios, but I wonder how promptly their calls are answered?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The initial line was the it would have to be a useful firm NOT to have a person sat in the traffic office of an evening for such an eventuality. Well, it doesn't happen and that includes bus companies on the continent. They do not have out of hours contact numbers for passengers - as with the UK, any number is usually only available to somewhere around 1800-1900 - a quick cursory glance of four (at random) places (i.e. Berlin, Marseilles, Brussels and Utrecht) shows that is the case.

The cost of a person on call is how much per year? One of the posters on here must have worked it out? I can assure you that I'd not wish to be on call for nothing! Then put that against the probability of a last bus failure.

As has been said, drivers DO have a different contact number. However, that may often be to a recovery firm with a wrecker; even if it is to a company number, it may be to a central engineering number - in many provincial fleets, it may be the largest depot only that is open later or on Sundays. Fine if it is the "once in a blue moon scenario" with a driver ringing - a lot different if a fitter is getting up every 15 mins to handle a call from Joe Public asking where their bus is!

 

[causton]

Drivers must have a different contact number again, as they don't have radios, but I wonder how promptly their calls are answered?

Actually, the new ticket machines have a 'radio' feature which presumably uses VOIP or some sort of standard phone technology to contact the depot. Unless that has stopped working and they have turned that off

I remember they were quite good, after finishing work in London Colney late one night and facing a long slog on a bus going a route that takes over 60 minutes when a car can drive direct back to my house in 15 minutes, the bus broke down as I was getting on it. Luckily another bus was driving out of service straight back to depot, and saw the smoke/steam coming from the bus I was on and said "Anyone going back to Hatfield, get on my bus I'll take you back!" He even did the loop of the town that the other bus normally does rather than going straight to the depot, and dropped me off right outside my house when I asked, he said "Well this isn't officially a bus stop" and I replied "Well this isn't officially a public bus either" so I got home earlier than I would have normally done! Obviously people going to other towns en route were not so lucky, but I believe there were other buses available for them to take!

 

[northwichcat]

The initial line was the it would have to be a useful firm NOT to have a person sat in the traffic office of an evening for such an eventuality. Well, it doesn't happen and that includes bus companies on the continent. They do not have out of hours contact numbers for passengers - as with the UK, any number is usually only available to somewhere around 1800-1900 - a quick cursory glance of four (at random) places (i.e. Berlin, Marseilles, Brussels and Utrecht) shows that is the case.

Whose posts are you referring to? The argument by overthewater was the office should be manned until the last service and an operator is crap if they don't provide that service, BestWestern disagreed saying it would be pointless. I gave a compromise of they could provide an hour out of hours line and have someone on call and you've got the wrong end of the stick. The argument hasn't ever been about drivers having a number to call in an emergency, it's about what a stranded passenger can do.

The cost of a person on call is how much per year?

It's less than the cost of having someone in the office ready to take calls, even if there aren't any. The actual cost will vary depending on what level of pay the operator usually provides.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It was OTW's initial post that caught my eye - by that definition, most of the bus companies in Europe are crap!

With respect, I didn't the wrong end of the stick. I was being a little tongue in cheek and I am genuinely sorry if that has confused matters. I know what you were suggesting.

However, whilst you've said it's cheaper and a compromise.... Has anyone actually worked out the cost of either? Surely, this is important to quantify at a time when evening services are at their most vulnerable as supported services are withdrawn.

I have done non-customer facing "on calls" - I certainly wasn't doing them for nothing as it means you can't drink, you can't go out, you can't have an early night and it is a real ballache. Lord knows what it would be like with a p*ssed up Joe Public on the end of the works mobile at 2330 on a Saturday night!

 

[richw]

Drivers must have a different contact number again, as they don't have radios, but I wonder how promptly their calls are answered?

The company I helped out with over the summer, the drivers had the duty controller’s number for anything that needed urgent action. When the office was unmanned the advertised number had a call divert set up to a duty mobile number. Most calls were enthusiasts asking what buses were on what duty, or passengers saying a bus hadn’t turned up (but it had, and they’d missed it or they weren’t at the correct stop- people waiting at the westbound stop for an eastbound bus for example!)

 

[philthetube]

Whose posts are you referring to? The argument by overthewater was the office should be manned until the last service and an operator is crap if they don't provide that service, BestWestern disagreed saying it would be pointless. I gave a compromise of they could provide an hour out of hours line and have someone on call and you've got the wrong end of the stick. The argument hasn't ever been about drivers having a number to call in an emergency, it's about what a stranded passenger can do.



It's less than the cost of having someone in the office ready to take calls, even if there aren't any. The actual cost will vary depending on what level of pay the operator usually provides.

If a number is advertised emergencies will quickly become timetable requests and will receive non stop calls

 

[Mwanesh]

The insurance thing is not a red herring.There is a big difference between a driver on his own and passengers.Try driving out of service with passengers and Vosa pull you .You will regret it.Most times if you get a vulnerable passenger i call the office and get permission.A few weeks ago i had to drive a wheelchair user to their door and take them indoors assisted by one passenger as a witness.If you get permission you are ok.

 

[Stan Drews]

The insurance thing is not a red herring.There is a big difference between a driver on his own and passengers.Try driving out of service with passengers and Vosa pull you .You will regret it.Most times if you get a vulnerable passenger i call the office and get permission.A few weeks ago i had to drive a wheelchair user to their door and take them indoors assisted by one passenger as a witness.If you get permission you are ok.

At the risk of simply repeating the discussion earlier in the thread, you are confusing motor/public/employer insurance with the registration and operation of registered local bus services, and perhaps individual operators advice/guidance to staff.

 

[Busaholic]

The insurance thing is not a red herring.There is a big difference between a driver on his own and passengers.Try driving out of service with passengers and Vosa pull you .You will regret it.Most times if you get a vulnerable passenger i call the office and get permission.A few weeks ago i had to drive a wheelchair user to their door and take them indoors assisted by one passenger as a witness.If you get permission you are ok.

IIRC someone was suggesting that running an extra journey 'live' rather than 'dead' would greatly increase overall insurance costs and that was, I suggested, a red herring. Time for a change of insurer, methinks, if it were true.

 

[fowler9]

I've been helped out by both Arriva and Stagecoach drivers in Liverpool. The Stagecoach driver dropped me at the end of my road.

 

[SteveHFC]

When I was at Sixth Form College, the college bus home terminated about 2 miles short of where I lived, and I had to change onto a regular bus service to do the last stretch.

However, the college bus upon terminating went dead back to the depot - running within 200 yards of my house. Many of the drivers knew where I lived, and often volunteered to drop me off near home, despite officially being out of service. I never asked.

The reverse sometimes happened - the bus would often pass me heading to the start point as I waited for a bus to where I picked it up, and they'd stop and pick me up - much to the surprise of my fellow students waiting at the start of the route (the first time it happened).

 

[fowler9]

When I was at Sixth Form College, the college bus home terminated about 2 miles short of where I lived, and I had to change onto a regular bus service to do the last stretch.

However, the college bus upon terminating went dead back to the depot - running within 200 yards of my house. Many of the drivers knew where I lived, and often volunteered to drop me off near home, despite officially being out of service. I never asked.

The reverse sometimes happened - the bus would often pass me heading to the start point as I waited for a bus to where I picked it up, and they'd stop and pick me up - much to the surprise of my fellow students waiting at the start of the route (the first time it happened).

It would be nice to see more of this kind of thing happening. I do completely get that there could be or are issues legally particularly involving insurance. It is a shame that the world has come down to pounds and pence (Or whatever currency) as opposed to doing the right thing. I once dozed off on the last bus home after a Friday night of after work beers and woke up in the garage on the top deck. I left the garage and started walking home and a car pulled up. It was the driver of the bus and he felt guilty he had not checked the bus when he parked up. He gave me a lift home in his car. I don't know if its my face or what but people tend to trust me.

 

[175mph]

Actually, the new ticket machines have a 'radio' feature which presumably uses VOIP or some sort of standard phone technology to contact the depot. Unless that has stopped working and they have turned that off

I remember they were quite good, after finishing work in London Colney late one night and facing a long slog on a bus going a route that takes over 60 minutes when a car can drive direct back to my house in 15 minutes, the bus broke down as I was getting on it. Luckily another bus was driving out of service straight back to depot, and saw the smoke/steam coming from the bus I was on and said "Anyone going back to Hatfield, get on my bus I'll take you back!" He even did the loop of the town that the other bus normally does rather than going straight to the depot, and dropped me off right outside my house when I asked, he said "Well this isn't officially a bus stop" and I replied "Well this isn't officially a public bus either" so I got home earlier than I would have normally done! Obviously people going to other towns en route were not so lucky, but I believe there were other buses available for them to take!

Is it the ticket machines that Stagecoach use that have this feature, VOIP?

 

[PermitToTravel]

Buses run by the large operators will have radios, and at most the radio should connect *somewhere* at any time of day buses are out (it might be to another garage, but there'll always be someone for drivers to speak to. Passengers on the other hand are out of luck :P)

To answer the question in the OP, yes, of course I'd take them back. In a mere six months as a service bus driver I lost count of the number of times I took an adult back merely because they'd missed their stop on the last bus, let alone the circumstance you mention of a vulnerable passenger. I've even dropped some people off at their door, on roads I'd otherwise have no business going down in a bus (though must admit that doing that would need a more deserving reason than them having fallen asleep!)

We're talking about at most a 5 minute delay to the driver, and otherwise potentially several hours of delay to the passenger. Clearly there are many valid reasons to not do this (e.g. if you've somewhere you pressingly need to be; if your employer will discipline you for it; or even if the passenger could just get another bus) but I'm a bit surprised at the overall attitude.

 

[PermitToTravel]

On the subject of insurance, some of the larger groups are self-insured, so presumably can cover or exclude what they wish. One such operator certainly had a strict 'no passengers if not in service' rule a few years ago, though the reasons behind it weren't routinely explained.

Quite the opposite! An insurer can enter into a contract that insures / excludes whatever risks they please (although if it does not cover all of the liabilities that the Road Traffic Act requires to be insured, then it will not suffice as a Motor Insurance policy) but a company "self-insuring" is merely undertaking to make good the consequences of any failure to discharge their liabilities to third parties.

A bus company has liability for injuries and losses sustained by people in their vehicles, whether they've paid to travel or not, whether the vehicles are in service or not. There is no amount of legal word play, no rules or policies that can be set, that will remove this liability. It cannot be overridden.

If fares are being charged, then the journey needs to be timetabled or PSV licensing offences are being committed (though I think even these might be dubious in the case that only one passenger is conveyed / one fare is paid). There are no issues with regards to insurance, though; and if nothing is paid, the practice is entirely legal.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I suspect the insurance would not cover a passenger being carried illegally, which they would be if the service is not registered. The reason the service is registered is to make it legal! If the service is not in the timetable, you would have to wonder why there was anyone there waiting for a bus that doesn't run.

The general reason buses are scheduled to be not in service, is that it is cheaper to get driver back directly, and not all round the houses. It can also be for driving hours, a service run takes driver over (or too close to) driving hours, or too short for daily rest if later back. So the faster "Not in Service" option is used. Some routes even have the last stops on the route registered as "bus only stops if required by passengers already on board" so it can turn round early if everyone is off.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Why isn't the passenger being carried legally (if no fare has been charged)?

Why wouldn't insurance cover a passenger being carried illegally?

Chapter and verse would be very nice if possible please

 

[Deafdoggie]

Insurance won’t cover your car if you’re driving illegally. Say you’ve had a drink & are over the limit, then have an accident, the insurance will only cover the bare minimum they have to by law, they won’t cover any damage to your car or you, as they don’t have to & you were driving illegally. If a bus driver is driving a route illegally, expect the same.

If a fare is charged it is illegal. That includes having a pass or return ticket. If a fare isn’t charged that’s gross misconduct. If a fare is charged it has to be a registered bus service. If the bus is “not in service” it’s...well...not in service. I think an insurance company would claim a driver acting on gross misconduct was not within insurance terms. I know it seems hard to believe that an insurance company would try to get out of paying up, but there you go!

But I’d have my doubts about anyone waiting at a bus stop when there’s no timetabled bus. Who goes to wait for the last bus at night without checking when it is?