Story not believed by STM staff at Bradford Forster Square

[zanderson7]

Hi all,

This is the first time I'm here and I desperately need your advice. My issue is a strange one though I am very worried. Please hear me out even if it is a little long.

Yesterday (Friday the 27th of Nov) I was catching the Forster Sq train from Baildon to Bradford Forster Sq. I just made it on to the platform at 12:11 as the train was about to leave. A man from Northern Rail just allowed me to get on as he was about to close the train. I sat in another carriage till I reached Forster Sq at 12:23. So I was travelling from Baildon to Forster Sq then intended to travel to Leeds a few hours later. I didn't have a ticket so I approached one of the conductors at the end of the platform (the station is a manned one) and asked to purchase a Leeds - Forster Sq retrun (my rationale for this is that I am coming from Baildon and I would be cut a deal and it would be the same distance and price so I am still paying for two journeys). Someone from STM security then took me to a side saying how did you come from Leeds without a ticket it's a manned station. I replied by telling her that I didn't, I came from Baildon but it'd be simpler for the conductor to cut me a Leeds - Forster Sq return as opposed to a Baildon - Bradford - Leeds in which the conductor would be confused. She said it's neither here nor there what I just said as she has to go by what I first said so took my name, address, DOB, and age and checked my drivers license to verify this; all whilst sounding accusatory. She then looked at my name and said "where are you from" and I repeated baildon and she gave me a funny look (I was extremely annoyed and frustrated, I wasn't in the mood to discuss my Arab name and heritage) and she didn't give me her name, just some STM ID number. She said Northern Rail will be in contact in 2 weeks with a letter in which I can respond.

The issue here is that I am very very anxious about potential repercussions. I am a law student and so need to register with the SRA who are very very strict - I cannot have any blot on my record. I know i am innocent, and even the info I provided had no intention to cheat or deceive as I was paying for a same price ticket. I asked around at Leeds station later on in the day when I was there and it was suggested that there should be CCTV to prove my case that I did get on at Baildon and not Leeds and skipped past ticket barriers which is what I assume I'm being accused of. I tried to get the Northern Rail man's name who was on the 12:11 Forster Sq train to Baildon who could potentially vouch for me as I sprinted onto the train seconds before it closed. I couldn't get his name but was provided with the train's ID. When I was speaking to a senior conductor in Leeds, he said I have to wait for this letter, but if found guilty of ticket offences it could be between £80 - £1000 fine and criminal record. I am innocent as I didn't go from Leeds and fail to purchase a ticket, but trying to be clever and trying to simplify matters for a train conductor has got me into hot water.

I'm sorry this is long but this is seriously worrying me. I can't tell anyone close about it due to embarrassment so this is all I have. Please help if you can.

Thank you

 

[ainsworth74]

Just for clarity you purchased a Leeds - Bradford return ticket as your journey was going to be Baildon - Bradford - Leeds (I assume you weren't planning on returning to Baildon in that case)?

 

[najaB]

I am innocent as I didn't go from Leeds and fail to purchase a ticket...

I would be very interested to see what legislation Northern propose to use to bring a prosecution.

Leeds to Bradford via Baildon appears to be a valid route, and you can start short on a return ticket so I would agree that, based on your post, you haven't done anything wrong in that regard and there is no evidence of intent to avoid paying the correct fare. From what I can see Baildon doesn't have ticket purchasing facilities so you haven't done anything wrong in that regard either so no basis for a Byelaw 18 prosecution either.

 

[319321]

It is difficult to make sense of the OP's post.

zanderson: When you went up to the barriers and asked for a ticket, EXACTLY what ticket did you ask for? Was it definitely a return FROM Leeds to Bradford Forster Square and definitely not the other way round?

If so, najab's post is absolutely right. You did not have the opportunity to buy at Baildon or on the train and you attempted to purchase the best value ticket that covered your entire journey at the first opportunity, therefore you did nothing wrong.

It is likely that the RPI thought you were pulling a fast one as you were not on a train that came directly from Leeds and for the the barriers at Leeds reason. I'm interested to know if they still allowed you to buy the ticket you asked for as well?

 

[zanderson7]

hey no I wasn't, I was planning on being picked up from Leeds in the evening

 

[zanderson7]

It is difficult to make sense of the OP's post.

zanderson: When you went up to the barriers and asked for a ticket, EXACTLY what ticket did you ask for? Was it definitely a return FROM Leeds to Bradford Forster Square and definitely not the other way round?

If so, najab's post is absolutely right. You did not have the opportunity to buy at Baildon or on the train and you attempted to purchase the best value ticket that covered your entire journey at the first opportunity, therefore you did nothing wrong.

It is likely that the RPI thought you were pulling a fast one as you were not on a train that came directly from Leeds and for the the barriers at Leeds reason. I'm interested to know if they still allowed you to buy the ticket you asked for as well?

hey, i asked for a leeds - forster sq return. Yes Baildon has NO facilities. And btw the train arriving at Forster Sq which I came on arrived at 12:23 and was coming from ILKELY and NOT LEEDS so it'd make sense that I came from Baildon (which can only go to Ilkley and Forster Sq) unless they'd say "how did we know you didn't stop at shipley".

There should be CCTV to prove my case that I got on at Baildon

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can see why this looked suspicious, but it is indeed the appropriate ticket for the journeys being made. I can however see this being a difficult fight.

 

[Merseysider]

Regardless of the rights and wrongs here, it sounds like you could have made it easier for yourself, if your slightly confusing post is anything to go by.

A simple "I need a ticket; I've come from Baildon, but I'd like the origin to be Leeds" would have been much better. If everything is how you say it is (and I have no reason to disbelieve you) then the forum will help you get a successful conclusion.

But it would be most helpful if you could perhaps summarise/clarify your original post down to just the basic events, without any emotion. You'll have to do this anyway when Northern write to you asking for your side of the story.

 

[30907]

I don't see that the OP has provided false information, as they never claimed to have travelled from Leeds.

I agree that the ticket asked for was valid for the journeys intended.

However, the reason it was valid is NOT (as the OP thought) "it's the same price," but as najaB says, "the ticket from Leeds is valid via Baildon."

Assuming Northern pursue this, that is the line of reply to use.

The gate line staff may not have realised this (I know they should have done...).

 

[najaB]

I can however see this being a difficult fight.

I don't. The OP asked for a valid ticket for the journey they were taking, so there is no reason why this should be a fight at all. If Northern want to prosecute for travelling from Leeds without a ticket then it is up to Northern to provide evidence that this actually happened.

 

[ainsworth74]

If Northern want to prosecute for travelling from Leeds without a ticket then it is up to Northern to provide evidence that this actually happened.

Especially considering Baildon trains don't even originate from Leeds!

 

[clagmonster]

Would it be worth putting in a request to Northern to see the CCTV, both from the train and station, if both are fitted, of the passenger entering the station and boarding the train at Baildon, thus providing evidence if such is ever needed.

The one thing that does worry me slightly is that the passenger asked the guard for permission to travel ticketless and then went to a different carriage to the guard. Could that be construed as intent to avoid payment of the fare? Certainly in this position I would aim to be as close as possible to the guard in the train.

 

[najaB]

The one thing that does worry me slightly is that the passenger asked the guard for permission to travel ticketless and then went to a different carriage to the guard.

The OP didn't say they asked for permission, they said that the guard let them on as the train was about to depart (I'm assuming by his local door). They did not need to ask permission as Baildon doesn't have ticket purchasing facilities.

 

[zanderson7]

Would it be worth putting in a request to Northern to see the CCTV, both from the train and station, if both are fitted, of the passenger entering the station and boarding the train at Baildon, thus providing evidence if such is ever needed.

The one thing that does worry me slightly is that the passenger asked the guard for permission to travel ticketless and then went to a different carriage to the guard. Could that be construed as intent to avoid payment of the fare? Certainly in this position I would aim to be as close as possible to the guard in the train.

hey, i was literally sprinting to the door so had no time to check whether he had a ticket machine or not. I went to the final carriage as that one is closest to the end of the platform so i knew I could be out of the station quicker. I go to Forster Sq often so I am aware that there are conductors there so I'm not dishonest or stupid enough to be like "didn't buy a ticket from the conductor so I've got on for free".

I will be calling Northern tomorrow with the train ID and time and enquiring about CCTV.

 

[yorkie]

Providing you definitely boarded at Baildon, then you have committed no offence whatsoever, and a Leeds-Bradford return is indeed the best value way to make a Baildon-Bradford journey, followed by a Bradford-Leeds journey.

I would fight this if I were you.

I'm happy to proof read any letter you wish to send.

 

[zanderson7]

hey, i will definitely be fighting this as i did nothing wrong, thank you for your offer of help yorkie i appreciate it

 

[MichaelAMW]

Interesting one this. It is indeed true that the Leeds - Bradford return would cover what was required and since that was requested, and Baildon has no ticket facilities, all the OP needs to say is to the TOC is that they requested the appropriate ticket for the journey and that sale of this was refused. However, the OP's words: " I am coming from Baildon and I would be cut a deal and it would be the same distance and price so I am still paying for two journeys", particularlythe use of "cut a deal", make me pretty certain they were trying to get away with what used be called an "open jaw" journey on the grounds that they were paying for a suitable number of miles of travel. It strikes me as luck that they haven't actually broken the law.

I know that sounds like a bit of an accusation and it's obviously just a guess, but since the OP hasn't done anything wrong I don't feel quite so constrained to stick to known facts.

 

[scotsman]

I usually always argue against referring to staff conduct in these cases, but the 'where are you from?' line doesn't settle with me. That's not on.

Would it be in OP's favour to submit a separate complaint about the conduct of said STM employee?

 

[Haywain]

I usually always argue against referring to staff conduct in these cases, but the 'where are you from?' line doesn't settle with me. That's not on.

Would it be in OP's favour to submit a separate complaint about the conduct of said STM employee?

I'm impressed that you can recognise the context in which that was asked and tell that it was somehow wrong. It could just have been curiosity.

 

[30907]

However, the OP's words: " I am coming from Baildon and I would be cut a deal and it would be the same distance and price so I am still paying for two journeys", particularlythe use of "cut a deal", make me pretty certain they were trying to get away with what used be called an "open jaw" journey on the grounds that they were paying for a suitable number of miles of travel. It strikes me as luck that they haven't actually broken the law.

The way I read the original post, the OP thought the return fare he was asking for was the same as two singles, "the same distance and price" (as in many countries it is), and there was no intent to save money improperly.

As it happens (a) their reasoning was wrong, and they would have saved money but (b) the ticket requested was valid. I'd strongly advise taking up Yorkie's offer of proofreading.

 

[scotsman]

I'm impressed that you can recognise the context in which that was asked and tell that it was somehow wrong. It could just have been curiosity.

Context supplied by OP

She then looked at my name and said "where are you from" and I repeated baildon and she gave me a funny look (I was extremely annoyed and frustrated, I wasn't in the mood to discuss my Arab name and heritage)

 

[MichaelAMW]

The way I read the original post, the OP thought the return fare he was asking for was the same as two singles, "the same distance and price" (as in many countries it is), and there was no intent to save money improperly.

As it happens (a) their reasoning was wrong, and they would have saved money but (b) the ticket requested was valid. I'd strongly advise taking up Yorkie's offer of proofreading.

Indeed. Not an intent to get away with it outright, although apparently a bit of a creative approach, but with a basically bogus bit of reasoning that might have got him/her in trouble. The risk comes from not appreciating that return tickets offer a substantial, often approximately 50%, saving over the single costs for the same out-and-back journey. In a lot of way we're pretty lucky here compared with, e.g. France, where there are some excellent value tickets on TGV and InterCities routes but where full-fare return tickets on the regional trains can be pretty pricey.

 

[bb21]

Context supplied by OP

I must say the OP's account proves nothing, even if he believed it to be true, so I don't think such a complaint is going to be helpful in any way.

I would recommend that the OP sticks to the central issue in hand here.

Neither "She then looked at my name" nor "she gave me a funny look" can be proven, and "to discuss my Arab name and heritage" will just be seen as an assumption unless verbally communicated. It was probably a little unpleasant, but there are much more important things to be dealt with here.

 

[zanderson7]

i was just irritated by the fact that she had the cheek to try and ask me a rather personal question when she was how agitated i was. It's a minor thing. I much more worried abiut the main issue of the ticket.
I called northern earlier today and explained this and requested cctv footage. They thanked me for the call and emailed me a form to request the footage (which proves i got on at baildon). This happened on Friday the 27th of Nov, any idea how long before the letter? I heard it's about 2 weeks, but I;m already very anxious and the longer it is,the worse it'll be. I don't want it drawn out

 

[najaB]

This happened on Friday the 27th of Nov, any idea how long before the letter? I heard it's about 2 weeks, but I;m already very anxious and the longer it is,the worse it'll be. I don't want it drawn out

Northern has up to six months to decide if they want to proceed with charges or not. Though, from previous posters, in the majority of cases it seems that their initial letter is sent between two and four weeks after the incident.

 

[bradders1983]

You did not have the opportunity to buy at Baildon or on the train

This is the bit I dont get. Its not as if Bradford FS is the next stop after Baildon, there are two others in the middle, how come the ticket seller (the same person who let him on at the local door) didnt get to him? Was the train busy?

 

[najaB]

This is the bit I dont get. Its not as if Bradford FS is the next stop after Baildon, there are two others in the middle, how come the ticket seller (the same person who let him on at the local door) didnt get to him? Was the train busy?

That's not beyond the realm of possibility, it's also possible that the guard didn't do a ticket check. But it's a bit of a red herring as the OP is being accused (apparently) of travelling from Leeds without a ticket when they started their journey at Baildon on a train that didn't come from Leeds.

 

[bradders1983]

That's not beyond the realm of possibility, it's also possible that the guard didn't do a ticket check. But it's a bit of a red herring as the OP is being accused (apparently) of travelling from Leeds without a ticket when they started their journey at Baildon on a train that didn't come from Leeds.

Well yes, Im just wondering why the ticket seller (who I believe gets a cut of ticket sales? Was certainly the case a few years ago when a friend of mine worked for Northern) didnt try and sell him a ticket at any point in the journey. If I got a cut of sales I would be busting a gut to sell as many as I could! I cant imagine at noon-ish train from Ilkley to Bradford being that busy, to be honest.

And, of course, had he bought a ticket on board he may not have had any of the palaver he has had.

 

[zanderson7]

when i got on, i was sprinting and out of breath as i just managed to get on the train and quickly said thanks to the conductor who smiled and that's it.
I didn't stop to see if he had a machine or not and there was no approach from him, and i walked a couple of carriages down to be closer to the exit of forster sq station as i was running late for an appointment i had. It's not an issue of the conductor i don't think as i have bough a ticket plenty of times from the staff at the station exit - it's an issue of Northern thinking i came from leeds (and skipped the barriers) as that's the ticket i (mistakenly) asked for

 

[ainsworth74]

It's not an issue of the conductor i don't think as i have bough a ticket plenty of times from the staff at the station exit - it's an issue of Northern thinking i came from leeds (and skipped the barriers) as that's the ticket i (mistakenly) asked for

Agreed I think it would be best to probably move back to that part of the dispute rather than getting bogged down with why the guard didn't come through the train.