Storm Darragh - 6/7th Dec

[DelW]

Or maybe the people in charge, with their limited resources and who would be the ones gripping the brass rod in the court room should anything go wrong because of their decisions are being cautious and the memory of Carmont is still fresh in peoples minds. Running the entire service at well below line speed and for half a day is a recipe for timetabling disaster and has a strong chance to heavily disrupt timetables into the rest of the week due to drivers and units being out of position and the staff hours also being all over the place.

The phrase "How Hard Can it Be" is generally used by people who have absolutely no idea on what is actually needed but just like to have a little whine.

Reading many of the posts on this thread called to my mind the adage:
"Nothing is difficult to the man who doesn't have to do it himself"

 

[800001]

We need more communication when an essential service is lost for 3+ days.

I know the North Wales Coast isn't closed on Monday morning because "nobody can be bothered" but a bit more information to fill the vacuum would make a big difference. It'd be easier to defend TfW/NR against that allegation if we had an answer beyond "weather".

As an example, I'm sure there's a good reason why they only managed to prove Holyhead to Llandudno Junction yesterday. The one route proving train was given a path from Holyhead to Chester but only made roughly as far as Junction before dark. I'm sure there's a reason, be it safety or resources, why they couldn't send another route proving train out from the opposite end yesterday from Chester but it'd be nice if they'd tell the public a bit more about what's going on.

I might be happy to spend my time on forums, RTT and Traksy having a nose at what's going on, but the thousands of commuters who've been left stranded this morning deserve a bit more than "no trains, no buses, maybe check back later"

Most likely only did Holyhead to Llandudno due to it carrying NWR staff which equipment to cut up and move the many many trees down on the line.

 

[londonmidland]

It doesn’t help that when there are very limited rail replacement bus services, there’s no indication or timetable as to when it’ll turn up.

Picture from X showing a passenger enquiring about travel arrangements with Transport for Wales.

 

[Topological]

It seems a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't here.

TfW were saying that Hereford to Shrewsbury would open at 9, but as the 08:49 from Cardiff is only going to Hereford. It is now in that grey area of trains showing as running on RTT then being cancelled (where earlier trains were just showing as destination Hereford)

The staff at Cardiff were very helpful, as are the train staff. Its a trip via the Camp Hill and Crewe by the looks of it, but it will get me to Manchester and I am very grateful for that.

The First Class Advance from Ludlow to Manchester is less use though

 

[LAX54]

Although it was windy and wet in deepest Essex; thank you to GA for running services : Our train to Clacton ran impeccably to time yesterday and my mother travelled back to London today with no problems. Credit where it's due.

GA is now one of the Countries best ( if not the best) TOC's for RT trains, since the introduction of the 720's, 745's and 755's after the initial teething issues lets hope it stays that way once it's Nationalised next year !

 

[Malaxa]

As usual there is lots of beef in this thread between the ‘can dos’ and the ‘can not dos’.

Beef in the thread concerning Hereford is entirely appropriate I think!

 

[Krokodil]

At no point have I suggested anything as dangerous as running trains and hope for best. My entire point was to shut an 80 odd mile stretch of line, just in case was over the top if there isn't a better reason than, the met office said it might be windy.
Yesterday was brutal. I completely understand it. Today is a very different day, with very much less than predicted bad weather. Some sort of service could run unless there is genuine infrastructure issues. Which I have still yet to see

The line wasn't shut "just in case", the line was shut because there were multiple trees blocking it. It took the proving train all day to make it as far as Mochdre yesterday, with chainsaw-equipped staff onboard clearing as they went. The same unit is now proving the route from Mochdre to Chester and has only made it to Abergele so far.

 

[williamn]

Lack of information and incorrect information is the worst thing. Trying to get to Llandrindod today. TFW WhatsApp advised to get a bus instead and told me I can’t use my ticket on any another route.

When I said the website said there are no buses they said that is correct and apologised for the confusion but didn’t offer to help further.

Staff on the ground very happy to accept my ticket to Hereford instead where I’ll get a scheduled bus.

I don’t expect them to know every alternative bus route but they really should know to tell me about ticket acceptance.

 

[cheekybifta]

The line wasn't shut "just in case", the line was shut because there were multiple trees blocking it. It took the proving train all day to make it as far as Mochdre yesterday, with chainsaw-equipped staff onboard clearing as they went. The same unit is now proving the route from Mochdre to Chester and has only made it to Abergele so far.

The proving train has now made it to Prestatyn.

With just 20 mins to go, Journeycheck still has a "disruption until 12:00" message on there - I don't think it'll be reopening for a good few hours yet at best.

Will there be trains this evening? I don't know and I'd imagine TfW don't know but still plenty of scope for improved communication.

 

[The Prisoner]

Operational issues aside - not claiming trains should be run if the route hasn’t been proved and confirmed operationally in order - national rail’s app has all trains bar the shuttle into Holyhead as being cancelled due to “forecasted high winds” on the North Wales coast.

Obviously that’s nonsense - the winds today are around 10mph.

Sure it’s a limitation of the reporting system, but something like “tracks undergoing checks following recent extreme weather” would make far more sense and not leave the railway open to dismay from travellers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sure it’s a limitation of the reporting system, but something like “tracks undergoing checks following recent extreme weather” would make far more sense and not leave the railway open to dismay from travellers.

Agreed. And "due to a short notice change to the timetable" should never, ever be announced to passengers, it'd be better to say nothing at all than that patronising rubbish.

I think that one is used to highlight services where Delay Repay wouldn't be applied, but it shouldn't be used at all for passenger facing purposes, as it's not a reason, it's an internal marker.

 

[QueensCurve]

Network Rail have put a line block on the WCML Trent Valley to deal with the ongoing landslip issues around the Polesworth area.

Fixes to an OLE gantry are happening tonight. However, there’s a risk of the Trent Valley being blocked all day tomorrow if repairs aren’t complete overnight.

Perhaps there is scope for a thread on this?

Passengers urged to check before they travel on West Coast Main Line as emergency repairs continue

Ongoing emergency work to complete repairs to overhead line equipment on the West Coast Main Line in Warwickshire, following damage caused by Storm Darragh, means some early morning services between London and Scotland will take longer or be cancelled.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

What causes the portal to fail in that way?

Network Rail have put a line block on the WCML Trent Valley to deal with the ongoing landslip issues around the Polesworth area.

Fixes to an OLE gantry are happening tonight. However, there’s a risk of the Trent Valley being blocked all day tomorrow if repairs aren’t complete overnight.

Is that structure standing in the Up Down Fast alignment?



A detailed description of the scheme for the repair would be interesting.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Perhaps there is scope for a thread on this?

Passengers urged to check before they travel on West Coast Main Line as emergency repairs continue

Ongoing emergency work to complete repairs to overhead line equipment on the West Coast Main Line in Warwickshire, following damage caused by Storm Darragh, means some early morning services between London and Scotland will take longer or be cancelled.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

What causes the portal to fail in that way?

View attachment 170761

Is that structure standing in the Up Down Fast alignment?

View attachment 170763

A detailed description of the scheme for the repair would be interesting.

Looks like there has been a landslip on the embankment and its pulled the foundation of the portal with it

 

[QueensCurve]

Looks like there has been a landslip on the embankment and its pulled the foundation of the portal with it

Yes. That seems plausible.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Yes. That seems plausible.

Especially when you can see a noticeable track dip and an embankment covered in tiltmeters.

 

[Cantab26]

Have you. So many obsessively defensive people here. I would never want anyone tk be put at risk. But as someone who lives here, but didn't walk the entire length of the track as that would be trespassing, knows pretty well there isn't any good reason a limited service could not be run. And the continued threat of danger and strong winds today just haven't happened. There is a strong breeze at best

From where? To where?

So Llandudno Junction to Chester is clear. Awesome. Rrb bus Junction to Holyhead.
Why is LlJ to Chester closed

The lines west of Chester General (to both the coast line and down to Shrewsbury) were put on full stop on Saturday afternoon due to multiple large trees causing a blockage and fallen masonry from a viaduct.

The latter in particular requires further technical safety inspection to enable lines to re-open to service.

There may also have been damage to the signalling system and permanent way, but the trees have to be removed first to enable further inspection.

As always happy to be proved wrong and happy to apologise when wrong

Will you be apologising?

But 4 days should be enough time to resource 3 or 4 proving trains to start 8am Sunday and clear the various mainlines. Yes it may take all morning, and trains may have to run at 40/50mph for the rest of the day in case of more issues. Eg, Cardiff East&West, Shrewsbury South&North, Chester West & Holyhead East. How hard can it be.

Even if resourced and planned in advance, it could not have been run until completion of the aforementioned safety inspections.

 

[aar0]

Swansea has trains again for the first time since Friday, although inbound trains seem to be catching up to 20 minutes delay between Neath and Swansea!

 

[QueensCurve]

Especially when you can see a noticeable track dip and an embankment covered in tiltmeters.

I take it tiltmeters are the little mushroom things.

 

[DelW]

I take it tiltmeters are the little mushroom things.

There are various types, monitored in different ways, but I think that the "little mushrooms" are (a bit like real mushrooms) just the visible surface manifestations of larger subterranean entities - in this case probably tubes extending down into the bank. If the bank slips, the tube develops a tilt and triggers warnings.

Another type is simply surface mounted targets whose positions are monitored by a scanner, but I think they look rather different.

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A detailed description of the scheme for the repair would be interesting.

Possibly a new portal (or two) erected alongside the failed one, on piled foundations.

 

[Krokodil]

So Llandudno Junction to Chester is clear. Awesome. Rrb bus Junction to Holyhead.
Why is LlJ to Chester closed ‍♂️

Clearly it wasn't clear because it took the proving train until 15:55 today to reach Chester.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 1150 Holyhead-Shrewsbury appears from RTT to be the first eastbound train to have reached Chester over the North Wales main line today.
But the first westbound seems to have been the 1627 from Chester (1528 from Shrewsbury).

 

[185143]

No one seems to have mentioned in this thread, I appreciate this is a Rail Forum obviously, that the Port of Holyhead itself has sustained damage in the storm and I'd closed to Maritime traffic until "at least 18:00 tomorrow".

I'm supposed to be heading to Dublin on Wednesday morning... we'll see.

 

[cheekybifta]

The 1150 Holyhead-Shrewsbury appears from RTT to be the first eastbound train to have reached Chester over the North Wales main line today.
But the first westbound seems to have been the 1627 from Chester (1528 from Shrewsbury).

The 1150 didn't reach Chester, one train ran from Holyhead to Llandudno Junction and another ran from Chester to Shrewsbury. It'd usually show up as two services on RTT but must have been put into the system differently today. Possibly a third train covered the 1150's service pattern south of Hereford but showing as it's own service on RTT - haven't checked.

Would again like to moan about Journeycheck as despite services resuming the best part of two hours ago, it's still showing "We strongly advise you avoid travelling if you can. We are currently running services between Holyhead and Llandudno Junction, and Chester and Shrewsbury."

 

[Lewisham2221]

The 1150 Holyhead-Shrewsbury appears from RTT to be the first eastbound train to have reached Chester over the North Wales main line today.
But the first westbound seems to have been the 1627 from Chester (1528 from Shrewsbury).

The route proving train didn't reach Chester until just before 1600. The 1538 ex Holyhead looks like the first train through (1640 from Llandudno Junction) heading east.

The 1150 showing on RTT will be two separate trains - HHD-LLJ and CTR-SHR - running in the same path.

 

[Krokodil]

The 1150 Holyhead-Shrewsbury appears from RTT to be the first eastbound train to have reached Chester over the North Wales main line today.

No, 1I26 was the first through train

No one seems to have mentioned in this thread, I appreciate this is a Rail Forum obviously, that the Port of Holyhead itself has sustained damage in the storm and I'd closed to Maritime traffic until "at least 18:00 tomorrow".

I'm supposed to be heading to Dublin on Wednesday morning... we'll see.

I'm sure that I read somewhere that Ulysses sustained some damage too.

 

[AndrewE]

No, 1I26 was the first through train


I'm sure that I read somewhere that Ulysses sustained some damage too.

post #161...

 

[Lewisham2221]

No one seems to have mentioned in this thread, I appreciate this is a Rail Forum obviously, that the Port of Holyhead itself has sustained damage in the storm and I'd closed to Maritime traffic until "at least 18:00 tomorrow".

I'm supposed to be heading to Dublin on Wednesday morning... we'll see.

Is that in addition to any damage caused by the Ulysses collision you mentioned previously?

 

[Topological]

Swansea has trains again for the first time since Friday, although inbound trains seem to be catching up to 20 minutes delay between Neath and Swansea!

It appears that one line was blocked. The trains were all late by Neath heading East.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I read with great interest these debates , and thinking of the Great Storm back in the 1980's when commandeered DMU sets (and even a diesel Parcels unit) , with local PW gangs and every person they could set rustle up - set off with tools and the new fangled chain saws (sometimes acquired by using local knowledge and calling up shopowners etc , to open up their business at stupid o'clock to supply equipment) and set off with hope to clear lines as metropolitan as the Watford DC , and the North London line. Sometimes using their "traction" to drag the bigger tree sections clear of the running lines.

That spirit of "can do" and get trains running is still around today , and is impressive.

 

[TPO]

TfW have completely given up on tomorrow, which I feel is extremely poor form. Nothing Newport - Shrewsbury till Monday morning. Really frustrating personally. Anyone know why they throw in the towel at the first opportunity? Or anything else in this specific case? Cheers

You didn't notice the severe conditions then? I live in the red warning area and it was truly scary as the storm when through, as well as the main wind, sudden much stronger gusts which roared and sounded like thunder.

You might consider that it's a bit difficult to run trains if all of the grid power in the area is down and the roads to signalboxes, maintenance locations and train depots are blocked with falling/fallen trees. The staff have to get to work before you can think about clearing the railway.

On Saturday, the M4 was closed in 4 places. Never known that before. As of this afternoon (travel news on Radio Wales), there's still roads blocked in some areas of west Wales and still power off in some locations.

TfW cover a large, rural area and many of the routes were not constructed to the highest specs when built, so they are very vulnerable. The worst of the storm passed over a very large area, therefore there are not the resources to fix everything at once. Remedial works today will have been hampered by the wind, which the BBC have been reporting as substantial throughout the day.

It is worth noting that until pretty late on, TfW were warning of evening cancellations (most west of Swansea, but with some Carmarthen services still running) and some early morning cancellations for the line to be examined. Aside from that, all efforts were made to run a service and indeed the last Carmarthen ran. Their 'Do not Travel' message was put out a lot later than GWR whose message applied from the early morning.

First thing, trains ran out on a number of routes such as the Marches, and Chester. They were pulled, seemingly after meeting obstructions. Reviewing RTT, they did a good job considering the conditions. As for reinstating services, there will be pressure to restart services but if the line is not clear the line is not clear.

"All lines are blocked" & "heavy rain and strong winds" are in that text too (not the best formatted admittedly).

People have already told you what is wrong with the lines and route proving is required. Stop digging yourself into a bigger hole.

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People aren't going to be sharing official logs in the public domain.

Again stop digging and presuming trains are being cancelled for the hell of it.

Quite. Considering the scale of the devastation, the clearing crews are doing really well, especially when you consider than in some places they will need to clear their way tot the access point first. Plus there's not that many daylight hours at this time of year and using a chainsaw safely needs enough light to see what you're doing- especially when you are dealing with fallen trees which may need some climbing and delimbing before cutting up for removal. And you know, they need to sleep and eat as well.

The line wasn't shut "just in case", the line was shut because there were multiple trees blocking it. It took the proving train all day to make it as far as Mochdre yesterday, with chainsaw-equipped staff onboard clearing as they went. The same unit is now proving the route from Mochdre to Chester and has only made it to Abergele so far.

Very much so.

I am going to be grumpy and suggest that the armchair critics realise that out there in the real world we've had an incredibly severe storm, it's not just the railway but roads and also the power distribution companies that have been putting in the hours to clear the debris away. There's places which still haven't got electricity back.

I know it's disappointing if a trip is cancelled. But be glad you didn't lose your roof off your house, or have a tree fall on your car, or have the contents of your freezer defrost due to no power.

TPO