Stopping short at Newport on an advance to Cardiff Central.

[trevmonk]

I have an Advance from London to Cardiff Central next week. Due to change of plans I now want to stop short at Newport. Does anyone with local knowledge know how this would be viewed?

 

[JonathanH]

Is anyone actually likely to know? Stopping short on an advance ticket is against the terms and conditions, and Newport is a gated station.

Given a return from Newport to Cardiff Central is £5.30 off-peak / £6.70 anytime and an anytime day single is £6.00, you might prefer the peace of mind of buying that ticket and travelling via Cardiff to exit at Newport.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

In the circumstances outlined, if the OP did have the supplementary Cardiff-Newport ticket(s), would they be expected (or required) to travel the 15 minutes past Newport, to Cardiff Central, before turning round and returning back to Newport, and then exiting there?

 

[Gaelan]

In the circumstances outlined, if the OP did have the supplementary Cardiff-Newport ticket(s), would they be expected (or required) to travel the 15 minutes past Newport, to Cardiff Central, before turning round and returning back to Newport, and then exiting there?

In principle yes, there's nothing in the rules that would allow them to do anything else.

Realistically, if they exited the gateline with the Newport ticket, I can't see how anybody (or the gates) would know to challenge them.

 

[island]

In principle yes, there's nothing in the rules that would allow them to do anything else.

Realistically, if they exited the gateline with the Newport ticket, I can't see how anybody (or the dateline) would know to challenge them.

If the ticket was a magnetic stripe ticket it wouldn’t be an issue, but if it was an e-ticket there is at least a possibility that it would be picked up as not having been used to enter Cardiff Central and some questions asked.

 

[northwichcat]

but if it was an e-ticket there is at least a possibility that it would be picked up as not having been used to enter Cardiff Central and some questions asked.

I don't know the situation with Cardiff but I've split tickets at Chester before when changing from a Northern service to a Merseyrail one. I've never had any issue with my ticket from Chester not having been used at the barriers. Given that I've completed the Northern journey and left Chester (on a Merseyrail service), does anyone have the right to ask me to show the ticket I used to reach Chester?

 

[island]

I don't know the situation with Cardiff but I've split tickets at Chester before when changing from a Northern service to a Merseyrail one. I've never had any issue with my ticket from Chester not having been used at the barriers.

That won’t have been an e-ticket though.

Given that I've completed the Northern journey and left Chester (on a Merseyrail service), does anyone have the right to ask me to show the ticket I used to reach Chester?

Yes.

 

[trevmonk]

I had a vague memory that a while back operators were encouraged to show discretion with people stopping short on Advances (perhaps unwritten). If the reason was convenience and not in order to save money then I thought the guidance was to allow it. In my case at the time of purchase I could have bought an Advance to Newport rather than Cardiff on the same train and would have actually spent less so my motivation isn't to save money. I can understand though why they want to outlaw those who stop short of their destination by 100 miles because an Advance ticket to somewhere else is half the price of one to their required destination.

 

[northwichcat]

That won’t have been an e-ticket though.

Merseyrail Day Savers are sold as pdf tickets: https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/daily-travel/day-saver/

 

[island]

Merseyrail Day Savers are sold as pdf tickets: https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/daily-travel/day-saver/

Do they work on ticket gate scanners? (Do Merseyrail stations even have ticket gate scanners?)

 

[Wallsendmag]

If the ticket was a magnetic stripe ticket it wouldn’t be an issue, but if it was an e-ticket there is at least a possibility that it would be picked up as not having been used to enter Cardiff Central and some questions asked.

DO VIX gates check that I'm pretty sure Cubic and S&B don't

 

[realemil]

The internal knowledge base has the following written:

Q: Can a passenger alight short of the destination on their Advance ticket, or board after the origin shown on their Advance ticket but on the same booked train?

A: Although Advance tickets are intended to be used only between the origin and destination stations shown on the ticket, there may be occasions where a passenger joins the correct train but at a later station, or alights earlier than the indicated destination. Although this is not strictly in accordance with the rules for Advance tickets, the Rail industry has agreed that in such cases, no additional fare should be charged (unless there is clear evidence of intent to try and avoid a higher fare).

Whether in principal this would be the case is questionable.

 

[trevmonk]

Thanks. That was the guidance I was thinking of. Having paid more for the Cardiff Advance than a Newport one would have been then I should be in the clear according to that. But as you say, there may be other interpretations (or unawareness) from staff with a different view.

 

[island]

DO VIX gates check that I'm pretty sure Cubic and S&B don't

No, but short distance e-tickets can be rejected for monitoring and then scanned on TTK by a staff member to check whether they were used for entry.

Southeastern do this regularly on tickets from New Cross to London Terminals, one London Terminal to another, or Stratford Int to St Pancras.

I don’t know what exactly TfW do in this space but it’s not a zero chance.

 

[gray1404]

What concerns me about Newport is inspectors from Transport Investigations Limited may be lurking around. Would it be possible for the op to refund and rebook their advance ticket depending on what the price would be now and depending upon who they booked with?

They could also ask the train manager on the service to Cardiff and if they give permission for them to get off at Newport ask them for an endorsement?

 

[wilbers]

Getting the ticket endorsed either on the train or if convenient at a ticket office beforehand would make it unequivocably valid. The option to buy a local ticket if refused would still exist if needed.

 

[trevmonk]

If there's a £10 charge to amend the ticket and prices have increased since the original booking I thimk my best option is to get an off-peak Cardiff to Newport return before I travel to let me through the barriers. With a railcard that would only be £3.50 or so and likely be hassle free. Or, I could take a chance by asking nicely to be let through with just my original Advance, and possibly quote the industry guidance as quoted above if refused. Asking the train manager on board would work if he/she says 'yes' but if its a 'no' then I'll have to go to Cardiff anyway and pay to double back with added journey time.

 

[Deafdoggie]

It scarcely seems believable that you've paid extra money for extra mileage that you no longer need to do & the railways will not let you do what you now need, but make you travel somewhere you no longer want to go simply because you've paid for it.
I get the argument if it was cheaper to Cardiff than Newport, but it was more expensive! Next time save yourself money by only booking to Newport, if you need to go to Cardiff you can always buy a ticket at the same cost as it's costing you to get back from Cardiff now. That way the railway loses out on money, which frankly it doesn't deserve.
Common sense says you should just be let out at Newport without penalty. But this is Britain's railways & common sense doesn't enter into it.

 

[island]

It scarcely seems believable that you've paid extra money for extra mileage that you no longer need to do & the railways will not let you do what you now need, but make you travel somewhere you no longer want to go simply because you've paid for it.

Mileage doesn't come into it. The service is going from A to G and the passenger now wants to go to F instead. Services are priced on supply and demand.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Mileage doesn't come into it. The service is going from A to G and the passenger now wants to go to F instead. Services are priced on supply and demand.

But he wants to do less! In no other industry would a customer be penalised for wanting less than they paid for.

 

[island]

But he wants to do less! In no other industry would a customer be penalised for wanting less than they paid for.

You need to get it out of your head that this is "getting less", it's getting a different product. More like paying for a 2 litre bottle of Coke then putting it back on the shelves, taking a 6 pack of cans and leaving one behind.

 

[Deafdoggie]

You need to get it out of your head that this is "getting less", it's getting a different product. More like paying for a 2 litre bottle of Coke then putting it back on the shelves, taking a 6 pack of cans and leaving one behind.

Exactly. Your example proves my point perfectly. There isn't a shop that would penalise a customer for that. Indeed they'd refund any difference. Yet if the railways were in charge they'd attempt to charge you for shoplifting.

 

[island]

Exactly. Your example proves my point perfectly. There isn't a shop that would penalise a customer for that. Indeed they'd refund any difference. Yet if the railways were in charge they'd attempt to charge you for shoplifting.

A 2 litre bottle is priced below a 6 pack of cans, so shops absolutely would penalise a customer for that. You're completely wrong.

(Prices checked 17/11/23 in Tesco, 2 litre plastic bottle Coke £2.73, 6 cans £3.89.)

 

[Llandudno]

Maybe when you get to the Newport gate line and if challenged politely tell the staff on the gate line that you felt sick and needed some fresh air didn’t want to throw up on the train….

 

[trevmonk]

I think the different products argument is an analogy better applied to split ticketing where you could buy several different products and get exactly same result as buying one single product for a different price.

Given that Newport is only 15 miles or so from Cardiff and the prices for Advances seem to track similarly and are usually only 2 or 3 pounds different there is very little between the two 'products'.

It seems that from the guidance above that what I wanted to do is acceptable from the rail industry's viewpoint and should be allowed. The problem is often that the person who is looking at my ticket on the day might not be aware of that and it leads to a, confrontation.

I might be wrong but thought the guidance came about after a case was publicised in which a passenger was made to buy a new ticket a great expense for doing something very similar to what I wanted to do.

Anyway, for the sake of all the hassle I'll splash out £3.50 for an extra Cardiff to Newport ticket just to avoid any trouble

 

[xotGD]

Here's an analogy.

You go to a restaurant and order the three course set menu for £30.

After starter and main you decide that you are too full for the pudding.

The restaurant does not then charge you an extra £10 for not eating your pud.

Newport to Cardiff is the lemon sorbet of this analogy.

 

[Haywain]

Here's an analogy.

You go to a restaurant and order the three course set menu for £30.

After starter and main you decide that you are too full for the pudding.

The restaurant does not then charge you an extra £10 for not eating your pud.

Newport to Cardiff is the lemon sorbet of this analogy.

It's a very poor analogy.

 

[AdamWW]

But he wants to do less! In no other industry would a customer be penalised for wanting less than they paid for.

Actually there is - the airline industry.

I actually saw this happen once - someone wanted to get off a plane a stop early and was told they'd have to either stay on to the destination on their ticket or buy a new one.

More commonly of course it's cancelling itineraries if someone no-shows for any part of it (e..g not letting people use the return half of a ticket if they aren't on the outward flight).

 

[Krokodil]

I would chance it. You haven't been trying to avoid paying a higher fare so staff should be reasonable. If all else fails, there are two sets of barriers at Newport so try the other one.

I don't know the situation with Cardiff but I've split tickets at Chester before when changing from a Northern service to a Merseyrail one. I've never had any issue with my ticket from Chester not having been used at the barriers. Given that I've completed the Northern journey and left Chester (on a Merseyrail service), does anyone have the right to ask me to show the ticket I used to reach Chester?

The only time that I've personally witnessed the lack of an entry scan to be pulled up (by coincidence involving Chester) was when someone was already being questioned by RPIs over a repeatedly used fraudulent railcard (he'd been under suspicion for some weeks). The offender then dropped a day return for two consecutive stations on the Liverpool Loop that had been printed about an hour before he made the connection so it was pretty clear what he had done.

If someone does ask to buy a ticket from a barriered station and can't show how they got in legitimately then I do enforce the NRCoT and only sell an Anytime Single.

 

[xotGD]

It's a very poor analogy.

You'll not be surprised that I disagree.