Stopping at stations

[Meerkat]

I’d rather have the tpws and it take a few extra minutes.

I don't think anyone is proposing removing TPWS just that the speed curve it is set for may be overkill.

 

[D365]

It will indeed. Indeed I doubt L2 will ever get to 100% coverage.

It won't ever. Far North lines are the usual given example of a line that won't ever get ETCS.

 

[Skie]

Even if we could just have passenger preselection of doors (ie, press the button as the train is coming to a stand and the door will open as soon as the driver or guard gives the release) it would be a start, because it's readily accepted in much of Europe.

The 777s have this thankfully. The guards (train managers) use it when doing their platform duties and I’m sure the passengers will cotton on quickly.

 

[Bigfoot]

You don't really notice the speed between stops, you do notice how slow it is when you are stood up waiting for the thing to crawl into the platform, or waiting in the rain as it ambles along the platform and then stand there looking at a closed door for an age. The door opening delay on SWR 450s is just preposterous.

I witnessed at 3 stations whilst passing home yesterday passengers getting up walking to the door of a 450 whilst braking heavily into stations and repeatedly pressing the door open button. Whomever was driving was braking hard and the passengers were strugging to balance yet still frantically pressing the button. None of these presses were even in a station. I think one passenger might perceive it as a long delay but others have no issue waiting for the release.

 

[Meerkat]

I witnessed at 3 stations whilst passing home yesterday passengers getting up walking to the door of a 450 whilst braking heavily into stations and repeatedly pressing the door open button. Whomever was driving was braking hard and the passengers were strugging to balance yet still frantically pressing the button. None of these presses were even in a station. I think one passenger might perceive it as a long delay but others have no issue waiting for the release.

Whenever I go on the 450s people are impatiently hitting the button once the train has stopped (from inside and outside). We can see a platform yet it takes ages to release, and then the doors themselves aren't exactly sprightly.

 

[zwk500]

It won't ever. Far North lines are the usual given example of a line that won't ever get ETCS.

Far north may get ETCS L3, which does not require track circuits/axle counters, but reports train position solely through radio and passive balise.

 

[bramling]

Equally notably the London Underground, those parts still manually driven, enters stations just as before, and has not had this drastic slow-down. It would be good to compare management approaches to this, and the reason for the divergence.

You say that, however there is a slight difference on LU between many “old school” drivers and newer ones. There is certainly less charging into platforms than a generation ago. Generally speaking on LU those lines with 350ft length platforms are good for 35mph at the platform end, whilst 400ft platforms can manage 40mph - in all cases with some variation where there is a significant gradient, or on the day due to railhead conditions in the open sections, or of course if the particular train has dodgy brakes.

What has tended to happen on LU is that “old school” drivers tended to be taught to throw on maximum braking and then take off what they don’t need, whilst newer drivers tend to work the other way round and start with less but put more on. For metro applications the first of those is generally significantly better IMO.

There are still a few drivers on LU who are adept at having a suitable braking marker and will be in 100%, or very nearly, service braking for the entire length of a tunnel platform until the last few metres, even if the starting signal is on.

 

[Stigy]

Never having been a driver I can only make comment from the side lines; but if a driver has the relevant route and traction knowledge and is deemed competent in every respect, if they are working a route where they open the doors, there should, assuming nothing at the station being approached seems out of the ordinary/untoward, and they stop at the correct STOP mark, why can't the doors be released within a few seconds? Unless, like the WSP issue I mentioned earlier, there are technical on board issues that are (in part) delaying door release?

May be something for one of todays driver's to comment on?

The doors are released within a few seconds. Five seconds or so I take usually. It’s simple mitigation, because we’re all human at the end of the day, and if I can take a couple of seconds longer to open the doors and avoid a possible blot on my copybook for years to come, I’m going to take those few extra seconds.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2023 ==

Yes that wouldn’t prove popular but if it helps with safety then people will soon get used to it & realise moaning doesn’t get them anywhere as it won’t then change back. Difficult call either way so who knows?

That would help drivers and mitigate against incidents of stop shirts etc, but potentially present other issues at the platform/train interface.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2023 ==

At one company I’m aware of, they like to see a pause of at least four seconds between stopping and releasing the doors. Anything less will be ‘mentioned’ on a ride or download.

There is also the leaf fall policy of 10mph at an AWS ramp for a red signal, regardless of rail conditions, between October and December. That can add a real amount of time at certain locations.

Trainees are ‘encouraged’ to hit station ramps at a maximum of 20mph too, regardless of conditions.

The 10mph toward a red can be painful I agree, especially in some places. It was changed last year where I work to encompass every single red signal, where as before, it was only in known LRA areas I think?

 

[bramling]

The doors are released within a few seconds. Five seconds or so I take usually. It’s simple mitigation, because we’re all human at the end of the day, and if I can take a couple of seconds longer to open the doors and avoid a possible blot on my copybook for years to come, I’m going to take those few extra seconds.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2023 ==


That would help drivers and mitigate against incidents of stop shirts etc, but potentially present other issues at the platform/train interface.

As ever driving is all about routines, and it only takes one thing to break that and something can happen. That trigger could be anything, from an alarm coming up on the train’s TMS, to someone doing something strange on the platform which catches the driver’s attention. Any driver is vulnerable to this, even the most experienced, hence the value of taking the extra time to check.

It’s always surprised me the big railway *hasn’t* developed a CSDE system. I guess the reason why is simply that none of this was an issue in slam-door days, and many sliding door trains as well as DOO schemes came in during the 80s when usage levels were notoriously low so extra time didn’t matter. All this is another reason why timekeeping and performance suffered during the 2000-2020 period.

It probably isn’t a massive thing for Intercity services, but for metro applications I’d have thought this would have been a thing by now.

 

[Stigy]

As ever driving is all about routines, and it only takes one thing to break that and something can happen. That trigger could be anything, from an alarm coming up on the train’s TMS, to someone doing something strange on the platform which catches the driver’s attention. Any driver is vulnerable to this, even the most experienced, hence the value of taking the extra time to check.

It’s always surprised me the big railway *hasn’t* developed a CSDE system. I guess the reason why is simply that none of this was an issue in slam-door days, and many sliding door trains as well as DOO schemes came in during the 80s when usage levels were notoriously low so extra time didn’t matter. All this is another reason why timekeeping and performance suffered during the 2000-2020 period.

It probably isn’t a massive thing for Intercity services, but for metro applications I’d have thought this would have been a thing by now.

I fully agree. I’ve always just assumed it was a case of cost vs risk assessment?

 

[Taunton]

You say that, however there is a slight difference on LU between many “old school” drivers and newer ones. There is certainly less charging into platforms than a generation ago. Generally speaking on LU those lines with 350ft length platforms are good for 35mph at the platform end, whilst 400ft platforms can manage 40mph - in all cases with some variation where there is a significant gradient, or on the day due to railhead conditions in the open sections, or of course if the particular train has dodgy brakes.

What has tended to happen on LU is that “old school” drivers tended to be taught to throw on maximum braking and then take off what they don’t need, whilst newer drivers tend to work the other way round and start with less but put more on. For metro applications the first of those is generally significantly better IMO.

There are still a few drivers on LU who are adept at having a suitable braking marker and will be in 100%, or very nearly, service braking for the entire length of a tunnel platform until the last few metres, even if the starting signal is on.

It was quite noticeable around 2000-2005, when the Jubilee Line Extension opened with platform edge doors but manual driving, how the crews were pretty adept at still running in at full speed, and stopping with the doors perfectly aligned, at every station. I doubt many in the train noticed the precision but I certainly did. In that time I think I had maybe just two stops a fraction short, where pulling up to the marker was needed.

 

[CE142]

I have noticed that new microwave Drivers will use the full length of a platform, whereas Old Hand Drivers will manage to stop with the back door on the Platform no matter what the formation of various units and lengths....

 

[Sly Old Fox]

I have noticed that new microwave Drivers will use the full length of a platform, whereas Old Hand Drivers will manage to stop with the back door on the Platform no matter what the formation of various units and lengths....

If you’re referring to the mainline I don’t think that’s correct at all.

 

[delt1c]

Ah yes. On one occasion that I will always remember (date and time of day I do not) I was in a rush so boarded my train and sat up behind the leading van bulkhead (8 EPB), and was well prepared to make a speedy exit with a hand held on the outside handle, in readiness to open, although I never flung doors wide open, that was a no-no as far as I was concerned, but as we came to a lurching stop, opened door and stepped out, only to see a driver leaping from van ahead of me and beating me to the barrier line - on seeing this I glanced at the cab on passing only to see it was empty.....


Apologies. But overall it is easy to see how a combination of things has led to slower overall journey times of late.

Remember waiting at Crewe for the XC service which was using D9000 , never saw a loco hauled train enter so fast and stop in time. Was awesome. Someone else on here was with me who witnessed

 

[InkyScrolls]

I have noticed that new [mainline] Drivers will use the full length of a platform, whereas Old Hand Drivers will manage to stop with the back door on the Platform no matter what the formation of various units and lengths...

Not true, at least in my observations. I've had the full mixture, including stopping short and overruns, from all over the 'driver experience level' spectrum. And I say this as a conductor, so I've had many thousands of examples!

 

[ComUtoR]

It’s always surprised me the big railway *hasn’t* developed a CSDE system. I guess the reason why is simply that none of this was an issue in slam-door days, and many sliding door trains as well as DOO schemes came in during the 80s when usage levels were notoriously low so extra time didn’t matter. All this is another reason why timekeeping and performance suffered during the 2000-2020 period.

It probably isn’t a massive thing for Intercity services, but for metro applications I’d have thought this would have been a thing by now.

It has developed CSDE systems. The problem, as I mentioned up-thread, is the implementation of it. The 'Big Railway' is awful at using technology and the various systems we have are often the cheapest or are flawed in some way.

When I was driving 700s, we were trained that there is CSDE and it will prevent a wrong side release. The reality is that the system needs to read the information from the Balise and only worked in 'The Core' as that where they were all located. When you have the 'broken wine glass' indication, you are protected by CSDE and FASDO will kick in. Outside 'The Core' you could pop the doors wherever you wanted and they would open (sorta) Again, the system was poorly programmed that if you weren't in a station it would default to a 4 door release. Meaning you can open the doors on a signal (which happened) They did eventually reprogram the default to zero when then eliminated the issue. This still doesn't prevent wrong side release or stopping short and releasing as the system uses GPS to determine location and the doors are enabled if you are just outside a platform. I believe the reason why CSDE doesn't work well with just the GPS is that it doesn't know which platform its on and some platforms you can stop on either side. It does have a list of platforms and platform lengths coded in (Elephant/Peckham Rye etc)

I fully agree. I’ve always just assumed it was a case of cost vs risk assessment?

ALARP (as low as reasonably practicable) is being applied at all times. The 'three-step check' 'pause for doors' etc are very easy to implement and come as a negligible cost. It's just a matter of micromanaging the PDPs (professional driving policy) ALARP has worked incredibly well here and wrong side releases and stop short releases have dramatically reduced. So much so that any new technology will never match the cost/benefit ratio. However, CSDE/SDO etc are all coming in with new rolling stock. Yes they still havent found the perfect system and each new unit seems to bring another new SDO/CSDE variant but it means the cost in absorbed in procurement. Sadly, because 'The Railway' often feels like its run by a thousand monkeys sitting at keyboards, there are issues with how new units are specced and you have silly situations where lessons about the 700 fleet are not passed down to the entire Desiro City family

 

[CC 72100]

I have noticed that new microwave Drivers will use the full length of a platform, whereas Old Hand Drivers will manage to stop with the back door on the Platform no matter what the formation of various units and lengths....

I don't really see how this is relevant, as without giving locations, train formations and knowing the company professional driving policy relevant to station stopping, you can't be sure on any of that.

That and the fact the term 'microwave drivers' is completely insulting, obviously.

 

[Taunton]

whereas Old Hand Drivers will manage to stop with the back door on the Platform no matter what the formation of various units and lengths....

I didn't see it, before my time, but heard it from a number, that the Cornish Riviera at Taunton used to detach a slip coach at speed about half a mile before the station, sometimes with a second coach attached. The only braking available to the slip guard was with the vacuum cylinders underneath, you got just a couple of applications/releases, and no power. It was apparently invariably stopped, not just at the platform, but with the front door directly opposite the subway steps.

 

[dk1]

That and the fact the term 'microwave drivers' is completely insulting, obviously.

Before that they were known as ‘boil in the bag’. It’s used by anyone who didn’t do the full MP12 as it was known in days of old.

 

[185]

Northern definitely here.
Guard makes way through train having been delayed checking and selling tickets onboard.
Guard takes time if the train is busy for obvious reasons.
Guard exits the rear cab door onto the platform.
Guard performs appropriate routine to check.
Guard gets back into rear cab.
Guard releases the doors.
Passengers don't notice immediately because they've given up in frustration at this point.
Passengers are eventually allowed to open the doors.
It can sometimes take a minute or more.
Then repeat at the next station three minutes later.

A very small number of guards on your local line may do this, but it's fair to say having used the Northern local service a lot over the last 10+ years, that's probably about one guard in 30. Both the Crewes & Alderleys have some of the best punctuality scores of all their Manchester stopping routes - real time trains will confirm this, and any guard repeatedly incurring delay minutes at any operator will usually get spoken to.

 

[CC 72100]

Before that they were known as ‘boil in the bag’. It’s used by anyone who didn’t do the full MP12 as it was known in days of old.

I understand the term (and the previous itereration), I just think it's a very divisive way of referring to newer drivers, especially when there is a subtle meaning behind it that unless you started as a Trainman D and did XYZ you're not as complete.

Especially in a post which basically lauded the skill of older more experienced drivers v. newer ones*.

*And this isn't a dig at experienced drivers at all, I just think it's a bit dangerous to rank drivers based on years served and that alone. Hopefully I've managed to put across that I'm not having a dig at experienced drivers; I just don't agree with the trend of looking down on newer drivers. You can respect the former without insulting the latter (and not aimed at yourself, obviously.)

 

[jfollows]

A very small number of guards on your local line may do this, but it's fair to say having used the Northern local service a lot over the last 10+ years, that's probably about one guard in 30. Both the Crewes & Alderleys have some of the best punctuality scores of all their Manchester stopping routes - real time trains will confirm this, and any guard repeatedly incurring delay minutes at any operator will usually get spoken to.

You're right, and I could have been clearer myself - the trains don't run late as you say, their delays owing to the station work are timed in, and as I mentioned earlier they're no faster than the significantly less powerful trains of the 1970s, presumably because the latter spent less time slowing down and stopping than today's trains do.

 

[Bikeman78]

The whole ethos, practice, training of train driving skills has radically changed since the old days. This has resulted in significant changes in behaviour which have developed over time. It may be sad no longer to rush into a station and screech to a halt, but it's considered unprofessional nowadays.

Back in the day, trains would routinely pass the platform ramp at 40 mph and stop smartly at the correct stop marker. There are still some drivers that drive like that. Usually older drivers but some of the younger ones go for it too. I've had a few great runs in recent times.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I don't really see how this is relevant, as without giving locations, train formations and knowing the company professional driving policy relevant to station stopping, you can't be sure on any of that.

That and the fact the term 'microwave drivers' is completely insulting, obviously.

I've not come across the term 'microwave driver' before - I assumed it was an autocorrect error. What does it mean?

Edit: More posts have just loaded; my question has been answered.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Feb 2023 ==

A very small number of guards on your local line may do this, but it's fair to say having used the Northern local service a lot over the last 10+ years, that's probably about one guard in 30. Both the Crewes & Alderleys have some of the best punctuality scores of all their Manchester stopping routes - real time trains will confirm this, and any guard repeatedly incurring delay minutes at any operator will usually get spoken to.

Indeed; as a Northern guard on routes with very frequent stops I can confirm that we are expected to complete revenue checks and undertake station duties quickly (but safely) every time; delays of more than two minutes where there is no obvious external cause will get flagged up and we'll be asked about at end of shift.

 

[bramling]

Back in the day, trains would routinely pass the platform ramp at 40 mph and stop smartly at the correct stop marker. There are still some drivers that drive like that. Usually older drivers but some of the younger ones go for it too. I've had a few great runs in recent times.

Agreed. Fast platform approaches really shouldn’t be a problem. There’s people on LU that have driven a lifetime in this way, without incident.

 

[Teddyward]

I do 35 full length stop at end, 30 stopping before end and occasionally 40 if platform is uphill. Of course subject to signals and conditions.

 

[Watershed]

come as a negligible cost

A negligible cash cost, perhaps. But the performance cost is significant. Of course the people who set these policies aren't also responsible for performance.

 

[ComUtoR]

A negligible cash cost, perhaps. But the performance cost is significant. Of course the people who set these policies aren't also responsible for performance.

The performance loss from a 3 second delay before opening doors, really isn't significant. If it was, the policy would have been removed years ago. I have access to the performance figures for my TOC and it just doesn't figure in for performance. We all thought it would and complained quite vociferously. It turned out to very much be hot air and the significant reduction in PTI incidents far outweighed the more vocal minority. Not forgetting that incidents also have a significant performance cost.

I've never been keen on ALARP and it pains me to admit, but it's worked in this case.

 

[bramling]

The performance loss from a 3 second delay before opening doors, really isn't significant. If it was, the policy would have been removed years ago. I have access to the performance figures for my TOC and it just doesn't figure in for performance. We all thought it would and complained quite vociferously. It turned out to very much be hot air and the significant reduction in PTI incidents far outweighed the more vocal minority. Not forgetting that incidents also have a significant performance cost.

That depends on what is trying to be achieved though. For a metro railway running at capacity, three seconds at every stop is very significant from a capacity perspective. It won’t affect performance if the timetable has provision built in for this sort of thing, but by doing that it will certainly be reducing the capacity of the network as a whole.

Three extra seconds at a platform with a signal off across a junction could well make the difference between another driver sighting a signal at yellow instead of green, for example, especially during disruption.

If one looks at something like the Victoria Line, in order to routinely achieve 36tph they have had to chase every single second, which has been achieved with great success.

 

[TreacleMiller]

The performance loss from a 3 second delay before opening doors, really isn't significant. If it was, the policy would have been removed years ago. I have access to the performance figures for my TOC and it just doesn't figure in for performance. We all thought it would and complained quite vociferously. It turned out to very much be hot air and the significant reduction in PTI incidents far outweighed the more vocal minority. Not forgetting that incidents also have a significant performance cost.

I've never been keen on ALARP and it pains me to admit, but it's worked in this case.

This.

It's fascinating to see people thinking that a momentary pause is the reason punctuality is down, Also pretty bizzare to suggest that passengers don't notice speed on the move therefore a priority for higher ups is to shave literally seconds off a trip on door releases.

Slower signalling at crossing is my big time loss risk, nothing like dropping 2-3 mins being called down for a crossing and ending up 5/6 down because a stopper gets put out in front...

Couple that with more restrictions over wider and longer sections and youre going to see fall off.