Stopping at stations

[Meerkat]

I’d still pause. The problem with going straight for release, as said up thread, it becomes automatic. The risk then is not only attempting to release on the wrong side, but possibly attempting to release the doors when stopped at a signal.

Surely CSDE wouldn’t let you open any doors if there wasn’t a platform at all?

 

[ComUtoR]

Surely CSDE wouldn’t let you open any doors if there wasn’t a platform at all?

It's a different system. The CSDE and ASDO systems that I've used and/or been involved with don't prevent a release outside the platform.

Frankly it's beyond time that CSDE and some form of ASDO is rolled out more widely. I'd struggle to see how it wouldn't pay for itself in terms of improved performance several times over - yet in some instances millions are spent on minor route upgrades to save 30 seconds or so!

A recent quote for CSDE and almost complete incident reduction; still proved as cost prohibitive.

Thanks both. It will be interesting to compare wrong side door incidents before and after the pause for doors policy…

Ours is 3 seconds and figures have proven that this reduces incidents.

 

[Efini92]

Surely CSDE wouldn’t let you open any doors if there wasn’t a platform at all?

I’m not sure, we don’t have the system.
But what happens if the train has the system isolated or there is a fault?

 

[Watershed]

I’m not sure, we don’t have the system.
But what happens if the train has the system isolated or there is a fault?

Then the procedure can be that drivers must wait 3 seconds or even step down onto the platform (as guards have to do on some TOCs) before the doors can be released. You'd like to think that would serve as an incentive for keeping the system well maintained!

 

[Horizon22]

No not at all. I mean if I say stopped at a 8-car marker with a 4-car train id be annoyed with myself but wouldn’t report myself for it. As long as everyone gets on/off & im on time then no harm done in my book.

Better than way around than the other of course...

 

[bramling]

I’d still pause. The problem with going straight for release, as said up thread, it becomes automatic. The risk then is not only attempting to release on the wrong side, but possibly attempting to release the doors when stopped at a signal.

If something like on LU was used this wouldn’t be an issue, as the buttons would simply be disabled.

The only additional complexity on the mainline is dealing with different lengths.

On LU the legacy correct side door enable systems (ie standalone not interfaces with the signalling) we’re both simple and extremely reliable. As soon as the train picks up the signal then the relevant buttons are enabled - really is as simple as that. As I say, the only issue is it doesn’t cater for length.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2023 ==

I’m not sure, we don’t have the system.
But what happens if the train has the system isolated or there is a fault?

Not an issue if designed appropriately. You simply devise a procedure which the driver follows, just like with any piece of train equipment. On LU the driver presses the override button, which gives a short period of time when buttons are enabled. The onus is then on the driver to satisfy himself of the correct side, which is normally done by opening the cab door and looking back along the train.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

What are the SWR 455's like nowadays? Haven't seen one for a few years now, but I remember they used to charge into stations (when it was SWT) compared to the Southern 455's I went on they used to crawl into stations.

A few years ago I used to record the times on my local section from Bradford-on-Avon to Trowbridge to see if it would get near the record time on the Rail Performance Society of 4 mins something last recorded in the 90's, FGW services got nowhere close but the SWT 159's used to get a bit nearer

 

[dk1]

Better than way around than the other of course...

Couldn’t hide from that one if doors had been released

 

[Sly Old Fox]

At one company I’m aware of, they like to see a pause of at least four seconds between stopping and releasing the doors. Anything less will be ‘mentioned’ on a ride or download.

There is also the leaf fall policy of 10mph at an AWS ramp for a red signal, regardless of rail conditions, between October and December. That can add a real amount of time at certain locations.

Trainees are ‘encouraged’ to hit station ramps at a maximum of 20mph too, regardless of conditions.

 

[Watershed]

At one company I’m aware of, they like to see a pause of at least four seconds between stopping and releasing the doors. Anything less will be ‘mentioned’ on a ride or download.

There is also the leaf fall policy of 10mph at an AWS ramp for a red signal, regardless of rail conditions, between October and December. That can add a real amount of time at certain locations.

Trainees are ‘encouraged’ to hit station ramps at a maximum of 20mph too, regardless of conditions.

No doubt that all has a marginal safety benefit, but at what cost? Funny how such policies always seem to be introduced by people who aren't held responsible for their performance impact...

 

[Mojo]

Doesn't have to be. WMR are guarded throughout but stops on the Cross-City Line, with a guard fully controlling the doors, don't even have to last 30 seconds.

I don’t know if it’s still the case but when I lived in Birmingham 10-15 years ago, the Cross-City line platforms had a green line painted on the platform floor which indicated to the guard the train was correctly platformed, thus meaning that a check of the train did not have to take place before the guard opened the door.

 

[Taunton]

Yes, this is a network wide issue and there has been a gradual change over the past 20-25 years or so as driving policies have changed. This has had a fundamental effect on punctuality, and also journey times.

The difference is very noticeable in the Thameslink core between those trains that are driven manually and those by Automatic Train Operation.

Equally notably the London Underground, those parts still manually driven, enters stations just as before, and has not had this drastic slow-down. It would be good to compare management approaches to this, and the reason for the divergence.

 

[VP185]

Driving policies have all changed. Normally bought in by those who have never driven a train and generally justifies a manager having a job!

At the end of the day. The training today is dire. It is expected everyone drives in the same manner. This will never work. Everyone works and thinks differently. It should be up to the individual to find something that works for them and what they feel comfortable doing.
Some prefer to release the doors quickly to prevent becoming distracted by any other event that may occur. Things like STAR are not fail safe.

 

[dk1]

Driving policies have all changed. Normally bought in by those who have never driven a train and generally justifies a manager having a job!

At the end of the day. The training today is dire. It is expected everyone drives in the same manner. This will never work. Everyone works and thinks differently. It should be up to the individual to find something that works for them and what they feel comfortable doing.
Some prefer to release the doors quickly to prevent becoming distracted by any other event that may occur. Things like STAR are not fail safe.

It’s almost like they are taught to be scared of everything. With some newly qualified drivers they are so risk averse it’s amazing they ever get to the destination let alone in a punctual fashion.

 

[Bald Rick]

This is something we have to change as an industry.

 

[Efini92]

This is something we have to change as an industry.

It’s not that easy though. Gone are the days of waiting until you see the whites of their eyes before throwing the brake all in. Nowadays you’d just trip tpws.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

This is something we have to change as an industry.

The industry is too scared to make any changes that could be ‘less safe’.

 

[zwk500]

This is something we have to change as an industry.

It’s not that easy though. Gone are the days of waiting until you see the whites of their eyes before throwing the brake all in. Nowadays you’d just trip tpws.

The industry is too scared to make any changes that could be ‘less safe’.

The ETCS braking curve monitoring may help with this, although it will take a while to get mature data.

 

[Efini92]

The ETCS braking curve monitoring may help with this, although it will take a while to get mature data.

It will also be a very long time before etcs is rolled out across the entire network.

 

[zwk500]

It will also be a very long time before etcs is rolled out across the entire network.

It will indeed. Indeed I doubt L2 will ever get to 100% coverage. Continuous detection is always going to struggle to be viable for lines like the S&C and Cumbrian Coast, L3 will be needed for those lines to be converted.

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s not that easy though.

I know! But if we only did easy things, we wouldn’t have much of a railway.

 

[TreacleMiller]

This is something we have to change as an industry.

Why? What benefit are we going to see?
Do you drive and like playing TPWS bingo?

 

[Bald Rick]

Why?

Because, Covid aside, performance / reliability of the railway has been on a steadily decreasing trend for 13 years.
Driving style is a factor (One of many). Crucially, it is one that could be changed through process, rather than requiring investment.
I don’t drive, but there’s plenty on here who do who have made comments that imply that changes to driving styles have had an impact.

 

[Meerkat]

Why? What benefit are we going to see?
Do you drive and like playing TPWS bingo?

I assume the change would involve changing the TPWS set up.
Its a bad look. Make a fuss about how fast trains are and how electric speeds them up, and then the bit the passenger notices is painfully slow. You don't really notice the speed between stops, you do notice how slow it is when you are stood up waiting for the thing to crawl into the platform, or waiting in the rain as it ambles along the platform and then stand there looking at a closed door for an age. The door opening delay on SWR 450s is just preposterous.
Someone senior needs to grow a pair and shout down the safety mob who don't understand proportionality.

 

[43096]

Why? What benefit are we going to see?

Better performance. Maybe we’ll stop the cycle of ever more powerful trains running in schedules that are forever having more performance allowance added. In other words a better service for customers.

 

[Efini92]

Because, Covid aside, performance / reliability of the railway has been on a steadily decreasing trend for 13 years.
Driving style is a factor (One of many). Crucially, it is one that could be changed through process, rather than requiring investment.
I don’t drive, but there’s plenty on here who do who have made comments that imply that changes to driving styles have had an impact.

I suppose that depends on the location.
The biggest performance and reliability issues in the north west have been to try and run more trains on the existing infrastructure.
Fewer but longer trains would have kept performance up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2023 ==

The door opening delay on SWR 450s is just preposterous.
Someone senior needs to grow a pair and shout down the safety mob who don't understand proportionality

It’s easy to say that when you’re not in the firing line.
We live in a world of blame culture now, where mistakes can land people in the dock.

 

[jfollows]

I was interested to see that Manchester-Macclesfield takes 32 minutes today, I looked up a service which ran this morning on RTT. And in the 1970s it also took 32 minutes, that's when I was travelling home from school on the route.
However I also looked up power and weight of the units, and the power/weight ratio of a 3-car 331 is almost four times the power/weight ratio of a 4-car AM4 (class 304) EMU which used to operate the service back then (1,760kW or 2,360hp versus 620kW or 830hp, and an assumption that each car weighs the same because I don't have the actual weights).
So I suspect that we've swapped extended travelling time and poor acceleration for extended station stops and deliberately poor deceleration. But at least the end result isn't any worse for the end-to-end timing.

 

[Taunton]

Its a bad look. Make a fuss about how fast trains are and how electric speeds them up, and then the bit the passenger notices is painfully slow. You don't really notice the speed between stops, you do notice how slow it is when you are stood up waiting for the thing to crawl into the platform, or waiting in the rain as it ambles along the platform and then stand there looking at a closed door for an age. The door opening delay on SWR 450s is just preposterous.
Someone senior needs to grow a pair and shout down the safety mob who don't understand proportionality.

It's not only the "safety mob", but also elsewhere in the management structure. A real classic was when Eurostar, still running to Waterloo, completed the first stage of HS1. At considerable cost (that bit about £2bn) it knocked 15 minutes off the journey time. At the same moment the check-in time at Waterloo was arbitrarily increased from 15 minutes to 30 minutes, completely negating the investment.

Regularly we have improvements to the infrastructure, or new, higher performance trains, but no improvement in journey times from former times, because all the advantage is scooped by those who want just to enhance the resilience of the timekeeping rather than offer a better service.

 

[geoffk]

This has been for years particularly noticeable during the Leaf Fall season of course, when (on my patch if not others) re-timings of 2-3 minutes from point of origin (a.m) to ensure the peak Terminal workings stood a chance, and arrival at destination (p.m) were the order of the day.

It was well recognised that these measures were insufficient in reality in a small number of instances, but to go there from a TT plan point of view would mean quite drastic recasting of parts of the timetable (for a short period each year) and as the whole TT was one big knitting game, any such changes could get completely out of hand whereby additional (peak time) resources would be needed, both stock and crews. Just not possible for only three months of any given financial year, both financially and logistically.

I mention the above, as the problems mentioned in this thread are (potentially) taking the industry (journey times etc) in relation to planning and resourcing in a similar direction, and it may be that this is how the railway will be planned going forward, and people (passengers) have to get use to a slower journey experience?

Northern regularly introduced "leaf fall" timetables each October and I expect they still do. This often had the effect of making your 09.32 off-peak train into a peak train at 09.28 and hence subject to a higher fare! I was told no allowances would be made by flexing the 09.30 cut-off time. The alternative of removing lineside vegetation has met objections from environmentalists but, following the Salisbury incident in October 2021, one would hope more of this would be done.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2023 ==

It's not only the "safety mob", but also elsewhere in the management structure. A real classic was when Eurostar, still running to Waterloo, completed the first stage of HS1. At considerable cost (that bit about £2bn) it knocked 15 minutes off the journey time. At the same moment the check-in time at Waterloo was arbitrarily increased from 15 minutes to 30 minutes, completely negating the investment.

Regularly we have improvements to the infrastructure, or new, higher performance trains, but no improvement in journey times from former times, because all the advantage is scooped by those who want just to enhance the resilience of the timekeeping rather than offer a better service.

I suppose we can add TPWS to that, not to mention ticket gates. I often wonder how much slower a commute into London is now compared to the days of slam-door stock, with all the extra measures now in place. How many commuters have to catch an earlier train to get to the office at the same time?

 

[Efini92]

I suppose we can add TPWS to that, not to mention ticket gates. I often wonder how much slower a commute into London is now compared to the days of slam-door stock, with all the extra measures now in place. How many commuters have to catch an earlier train to get to the office at the same time?

I’d rather have the tpws and it take a few extra minutes.