Stopped for non payment - likely outcome?

[205nut]

Hi all, I was stopped yesterday on leaving Manchester Victoria by two plain clothes railway officials for non payment and I was wondering what the likely outcome would be?

Information of note:
- Travelled from Whalley, a station without payment facilities (Did not know this before arriving at station - first time there).
- No one to pay on train itself - walked the length of it twice and did not see any Northern Rail employees.
- Arrived at Manchester Victoria and promptly got lost on the way out - again never been to the station before, major building work going on and no officials to ask.
- Ended up (I have since found out) leaving past the arena. Did not know this at the time as said, I have never been to the station before and got lost.
- Intended to re enter via another entrance (thinking entrance normally situated near a counter) and pay then.
- Stopped on way out, officials took down my details - cooperated fully and did not try to give false details.
- Explained at the time they were the first Northern rail employees I had seen since leaving Whalley and offered to pay them immediately - told too late.
- Travelling on company business including expensed travel - stood to gain nothing financially (personally) from non payment.
- Use the train once a week normally between PFY and MCO. Can provide the last 6 months of receipts for this trip.
- Otherwise squeaky clean record.

I am willing to pay a fine but extremely keen to keep this away from court as it will affect my career prospects. Anyone have any help or advice to offer?

Thanks.

 

[Chapeltom]

Hi all, I was stopped yesterday on leaving Manchester Victoria by two plain clothes railway officials for non payment and I was wondering what the likely outcome would be?

Information of note:
- Travelled from Whalley, a station without payment facilities (Did not know this before arriving at station - first time there).
- No one to pay on train itself - walked the length of it twice and did not see any Northern Rail employees.
- Arrived at Manchester Victoria and promptly got lost on the way out - again never been to the station before, major building work going on and no officials to ask.
- Ended up (I have since found out) leaving past the arena. Did not know this at the time as said, I have never been to the station before and got lost.
- Intended to re enter via another entrance (thinking entrance normally situated near a counter) and pay then.
- Stopped on way out, officials took down my details - cooperated fully and did not try to give false details.
- Explained at the time they were the first Northern rail employees I had seen since leaving Whalley and offered to pay them immediately - told too late.
- Travelling on company business including expensed travel - stood to gain nothing financially (personally) from non payment.
- Use the train once a week normally between PFY and MCO. Can provide the last 6 months of receipts for this trip.
- Otherwise squeaky clean record.

I am willing to pay a fine but extremely keen to keep this away from court as it will affect my career prospects. Anyone have any help or advice to offer?

Thanks.

I must first ask, was this genuinely your first time into Manchester Victoria station? Just to check, I don't doubt your story for one moment though. PFY = Poulton Le Fylde - I presume, Whalley is near Clitheroe?

I have not been at Manchester Vic (MCV) in a while, but I am aware there have been cases on this forum where travellers have for one reason or another left via the Arena exit and found themselves in a similar position to yourself.

I'm not aware of how the signposting is at MCV these days, but at first glance it does seem awfully unfair if you have wrongly assumed you were walking towards somewhere where you could pay your fare. Others may correct me on the signposting/lay-out of MCV at this time!

 

[205nut]

I must first ask, was this genuinely your first time into Manchester Victoria station? Just to check, I don't doubt your story for one moment though. PFY = Poulton Le Fylde - I presume, Whalley is near Clitheroe?

I have not been at Manchester Vic (MCV) in a while, but I am aware there have been cases on this forum where travellers have for one reason or another left via the Arena exit and found themselves in a similar position to yourself.

I'm not aware of how the signposting is at MCV these days, but at first glance it does seem awfully unfair if your have wrongly assumed you were walking towards an exit. Others may correct me on the signposting/lay-out of MCV at this time!

Yes absolutely my first time in the station. Up until last September when I began commuting one day a week on the train I can count the number of times Ive used the train in the last 10 years on one hand!

 

[pottyy]

I find It hard to believe u walked up and down the train twice looking to purchase a ticket? 156 trains do have cameras and if needed may be used in evidence

 

[furlong]

I am willing to pay a fine

So what do you think you did wrong that you haven't told us that makes you willing to accept a fine?

(On reflection, do you think you did pass and ignore staff with portable machines or clear signage directing you somewhere else, or were you secretly hoping to get away with it?)

Read this thread, in full:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=88971

 

[205nut]

No, I stand by what I originally said. I did not see any rail employees until stopped by the two who took my details.

I had no incentive not to pay - I was not footing the bill and was not short of time. In my eyes I did not have any opportunity to pay despite willingness to do so.

I am willing (read: not happy about it but will do so) to pay a fine as whilst I find it unfair, I would rather not run the risk of it going anywhere near a court.

Thankyou for that link, that sounds like a very similar situation to mine and has some very useful information. I had searched the forum but apparently not well enough!

 

[6Gman]

No, I stand by what I originally said. I did not see any rail employees until stopped by the two who took my details.

I had no incentive not to pay - I was not footing the bill and was not short of time. In my eyes I did not have any opportunity to pay despite willingness to do so.

I am willing (read: not happy about it but will do so) to pay a fine as whilst I find it unfair, I would rather not run the risk of it going anywhere near a court.
Thankyou for that link, that sounds like a very similar situation to mine and has some very useful information. I had searched the forum but apparently not well enough!

On a procedural point a "fine" can only be imposed by a court. A negotiated settlement is not a fine.

The set-up at Manchester Victoria is a disgrace verging on entrapment. But if you are minded to challenge NR you will need a very clear account of how you found yourself taking a route which avoided the main exit.

 

[scrapy]

I find It hard to believe u walked up and down the train twice looking to purchase a ticket? 156 trains do have cameras and if needed may be used in evidence

Northern 156s do not have cctv. Neither do the 142, 150 or 153 trains that work this route. (some ex London Midland class 150 trains have cameras which have been deactivated). Dont think 158s ever work this route.

 

[afyutr]

I came out of the Arena a couple of weeks ago and ended on a platform somewhere whilst trying to get to Shudehill Car Park. There's way out signs at one point that lead you away from the exits.

 

[205nut]

Letter received today - the important bit as follows:

"On Friday 13th March 2015 you were spoken to by an authorised member of staff in relation to an alleged contravention of Railway Regulations. An evidential report has been submitted to this office regarding this office. Before the company proceeds further with its investigations in respect of this matter, we would like to give you the opportunity of responding with your explanation concerning it. Please complete the bottom section of this letter and if you wish to make any comments, please do so on the reverse. Only written mitigation will be accepted.

As you will appreciate, this is a serious incident; therefore it is imperative that you respond as soon as possible to ascertain the full facts in this matter. Failure to respond to this reasonable request within 14 days of this letter will result in legal action being taken (*Regulations of Railway Act and Railway Byelaws apply)"​

My response so far is as follows - I would really appreciate it if someone could have a look through and suggest any alterations before I return the letter:

Dear Sir/Madam,

On Friday 13th March I travelled on the train from Whalley to Manchester Victoria. As you will know, Whalley is a station without payment facilities (Though having never travelled from Whalley before I was unaware of this until reaching the station). I did not believe this would be an issue and would therefore pay the Ticket Inspector on the train itself.

Upon boarding the train I chose a seat near the rear of the last carriage assuming this would be closest to where the Ticket Inspector would begin his/her pass of the train. After spending some time on the train without seeing the Ticket Inspector I walked the length of the train looking for someone to pay. This search did not yield any result.

Upon arrival at Manchester Victoria Station - again a station I have never visited previously, I made for something that looked a likely exit, assuming I would be able to pay on the Exit as is possible at Manchester Oxford Road (My regular station in Manchester). Major building work at the time made the layout a little haphazard and there was no crowd heading in one direction, leading to me following my own rather convoluted path to the exit.

Upon reaching street level I had still not passed a point to pay and appeared to have exited from a minor exit without any facilities so proceeded, intending to loop around and re-enter the station through a major entrance and pay the outstanding fare.

At this point I was stopped by a representative of Northern Rail and asked to present a ticket. I informed the representative that I did not have a ticket and proceeded to show my 16-25 Rail Card to pay for a ticket before being told it was too late.

I was travelling on company business at the time of the incident (Copy of clocking records & covering letter from my employer available) which included expensed travel, this meant I stood to gain nothing financially from the non-payment of the fare. I have used the train once a week from Poulton-Le-Fylde to Manchester Oxford Road since October last year and can provide photocopied tickets and receipts detailing these payments.

I would like to apologise however for not redoubling my efforts in finding a pay point before exiting the station and realise that proceeding outside, even with the intent to pay, was a huge mistake on my behalf and therefore would like to offer to assist in covering the financial costs of this investigation thus far, alongside the outstanding fare.

A criminal record would severely hinder my career due to close relations with American counterparts necessitating travel to the US which would not be possible with a conviction - I hope you will take this into account when considering this case.

Regards,

Joe Bloggs
​

 

[cjmillsnun]

Letter received today - the important bit as follows:

"On Friday 13th March 2015 you were spoken to by an authorised member of staff in relation to an alleged contravention of Railway Regulations. An evidential report has been submitted to this office regarding this office. Before the company proceeds further with its investigations in respect of this matter, we would like to give you the opportunity of responding with your explanation concerning it. Please complete the bottom section of this letter and if you wish to make any comments, please do so on the reverse. Only written mitigation will be accepted.

As you will appreciate, this is a serious incident; therefore it is imperative that you respond as soon as possible to ascertain the full facts in this matter. Failure to respond to this reasonable request within 14 days of this letter will result in legal action being taken (*Regulations of Railway Act and Railway Byelaws apply)"​

My response so far is as follows - I would really appreciate it if someone could have a look through and suggest any alterations before I return the letter:

Dear Sir/Madam,

On Friday 13th March I travelled on the train from Whalley to Manchester Victoria. As you will know, Whalley is a station without payment facilities (Though having never travelled from Whalley before I was unaware of this until reaching the station). I did not believe this would be an issue and would therefore pay the Ticket Inspector on the train itself.

Upon boarding the train I chose a seat near the rear of the last carriage assuming this would be closest to where the Ticket Inspector would begin his/her pass of the train. After spending some time on the train without seeing the Ticket Inspector I walked the length of the train looking for someone to pay. This search did not yield any result.

Upon arrival at Manchester Victoria Station - again a station I have never visited previously, I made for something that looked a likely exit, assuming I would be able to pay on the Exit as is possible at Manchester Oxford Road (My regular station in Manchester). Major building work at the time made the layout a little haphazard and there was no crowd heading in one direction, leading to me following my own rather convoluted path to the exit.

Upon reaching street level I had still not passed a point to pay and appeared to have exited from a minor exit without any facilities so proceeded, intending to loop around and re-enter the station through a major entrance and pay the outstanding fare.

At this point I was stopped by a representative of Northern Rail and asked to present a ticket. I informed the representative that I did not have a ticket and proceeded to show my 16-25 Rail Card to pay for a ticket before being told it was too late.

I was travelling on company business at the time of the incident (Copy of clocking records & covering letter from my employer available) which included expensed travel, this meant I stood to gain nothing financially from the non-payment of the fare. I have used the train once a week from Poulton-Le-Fylde to Manchester Oxford Road since October last year and can provide photocopied tickets and receipts detailing these payments.

I would like to apologise however for not redoubling my efforts in finding a pay point before exiting the station and realise that proceeding outside, even with the intent to pay, was a huge mistake on my behalf and therefore would like to offer to assist in covering the financial costs of this investigation thus far, alongside the outstanding fare.

A criminal record would severely hinder my career due to close relations with American counterparts necessitating travel to the US which would not be possible with a conviction - I hope you will take this into account when considering this case.

Regards,

Joe Bloggs
​

IMO I would take the last paragraph out. Otherwise looks fine to me.

 

[LateThanNever]

IMO I would take the last paragraph out. Otherwise looks fine to me.

I would agree though I'd suggest that you also avoid the penultimate paragraph - if thay have misleading/unclear signage, you've still not had an opportunity to pay before being caught - or - it seems to me - entrapped..

 

[gray1404]

I think you had clear intent to pay. Manchester Victoria is avery difficult station to find your way around and th exit you used well it does not look like an exit on face value. I personally would not offer to pay their costs to date becuse this clearly is one occasion on this forum whereby you have done nothing wrong.

did you make a return journey back home and buy a single ticket? If so I would enclose difference in fare between price paid and the return fare by way of cheque. If you made a single journey I would just enclosea cheque for the rail fare in full and final settlement.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'd change the last 2-3 paragraphs, instead explaining once again that you had clear intent to pay and that you were unaware that the Arena exit did not have ticketing facilities.

 

[Greenback]

I'd change the last 2-3 paragraphs, instead explaining once again that you had clear intent to pay and that you were unaware that the Arena exit did not have ticketing facilities.

I agree. I've only ever been to Manchester Victoria once, last year, and I found it a miserable and confusing place with all the refurbishment and rebuilding work going on. I hope that there is sympathy for what happened. The layout at the station, when I was there, made this an easy mistake to make in my opinion.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Precisely. I know my way around Victoria and still end up standing outside McDonald's every so often, wondering how on earth that happened.

The only thing I would think about is where you were stopped, as that explains how plausible your explanation is.

 

[205nut]

End result - £80 fixed penalty notice + the outstanding fare.

Whilst it is a positive(ish) outcome it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth! I am sure someone more committed to fighting their case could have had it dismissed but the £80 is a relatively small price to pay for the peace of mind.

Thankyou to all who have contributed, this forum has been a goldmine of information.

 

[Starmill]

I wouldn't have accepted the £80 I don't think. Ensure you have sent them any outstanding fare but there's no basis for them charging you £80 if you intended to buy a ticket at the first opportunity.

 

[najaB]

...there's no basis for them charging you £80 if you intended to buy a ticket at the first opportunity.

The basis is that the OP left the station without paying. It doesn't matter what he intended to do, a Byelaws prosecution would be successful based on what actually happened. So given that Northern weren't in the mood to let it slide, £80 and no day in court seems like a reasonable outcome.

 

[Starmill]

I might board a train at an unstaffed station like Whalley, seek someone to buy a ticket from onboard and alight at another unstaffed station like Langho - without a ticket. I'd like to see a byelaw prosecution for exiting without a ticket then. Unless the exit used by 205nut was signed 'Ticket holders only', and as there was no opportunity to buy a ticket at that exit, I really would not like to let Northern get away with their cheeky £80 scheme having essentially done nothing wrong.

 

[GadgetMan]

I might board a train at an unstaffed station like Whalley, seek someone to buy a ticket from onboard and alight at another unstaffed station like Langho - without a ticket. I'd like to see a byelaw prosecution for exiting without a ticket then. Unless the exit used by 205nut was signed 'Ticket holders only', and as there was no opportunity to buy a ticket at that exit, I really would not like to let Northern get away with their cheeky £80 scheme having essentially done nothing wrong.

Go for it, but make it more interesting by exiting the same (manned) station as the OP without a ticket. Get yourself reported, then challenge Northern and report back.

Theres nothing daring or impressive about doing it between two unmanned stations without purchasing facilities.

 

[Starmill]

I fail to see your point. There's nothing daring or impressive about being unfairly prosecuted no matter what you do!

(Or in this case, having the fear of said unfair prosecution used to extract an £80 settlement and them recording your case should there be any future discrepancies).

 

[GadgetMan]

I fail to see your point. There's nothing daring or impressive about being unfairly prosecuted no matter what you do!

(Or in this case, having the fear of said unfair prosecution used to extract an £80 settlement and them recording your case should there be any future discrepancies).

So what point were you hoping to make by getting 'caught' traveling ticketless between two unmanned stations? Its not even close to the situation the OP is in.

 

[najaB]

I fail to see your point. There's nothing daring or impressive about being unfairly prosecuted no matter what you do!

Was the OP able to produce a ticket for the journey taken? Did they purchase a ticket before leaving railway property? According to the OP the answers are 'No' and 'No' so a Byelaws prosecution would not be unfair.

It would be unfortunate, but neither unjustified nor unfair.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . so a Byelaws prosecution would not be unfair.

It would be unfortunate, but neither unjustified nor unfair.

. . . and using the word literally, it would be just.

 

[jkdd77]

The basis is that the OP left the station without paying. It doesn't matter what he intended to do, a Byelaws prosecution would be successful based on what actually happened. So given that Northern weren't in the mood to let it slide, £80 and no day in court seems like a reasonable outcome.

How could a byelaw prosecution possibly succeed?

18(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if: (i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey;

Clearly, since Whalley has no purchase facilities, such a byelaw prosecution would be unfair, unjustified, unjust, and would not have been successful.

The OP might instead have been prosecuted for fare evasion under the RRA on the basis that he/she was deemed to have passed an opportunity to pay, with an uncertain outcome.

Whilst one hopes he/she would have been acquitted, one may argue that, in view of the risk/ reward ratio, paying the £80 ransom was the prudent course of action, but it is nothing to do with the byelaw offence.

 

[najaB]

How could a byelaw prosecution possibly succeed?

Because the OP could not produce, when asked, a valid ticket for the journey taken - and they had not bought one before ending their journey. Remember, they were stopped after having left the station.

 

[jkdd77]

Because the OP could not produce, when asked, a valid ticket for the journey taken - and they had not bought one before ending their journey. Remember, they were stopped after having left the station.

That is wholly irrelevant to a byelaw prosecution where a passenger boarded at a station without purchase facilities (read the byelaw!), although it may well be relevant to a s.5 RRA prosecution, albeit that, even then, it could be argued that:
1) he/ she always intended to pay the fare at the first opportunity, never deviated from that intention for a moment, and that he/ she would not have left the station area without paying and;
2) his/ her displayed actions were wholly consistent with an intention to pay the fare at the first opportunity, and that immediately attempting to re-enter the building after having mistakenly left due to confusing signage, with the full intention of paying his/ her fare, actually supports rather than detracts from that argument. Having used Manchester Victoria myself on one occasion, and having got lost within the station even when in prior possession of a valid ticket, I agree that the signage is somewhat confusing, such that a passenger may reach or even pass an exit without meaning to.

Indeed, it is possible, even probable, that the OP never actually left railway property before being stopped, and that there are numerous grounds on which the OP's situation may be solidly distinguished from the case law in Corbyn.

 

[najaB]

...it could be argued that:
1) he/ she always intended to pay the fare at the first opportunity, never deviated from that intention for a moment, and that he/ she would not have left the station area without paying...

As I said above, a Byelaws prosecution would be unfortunate, but according to the OP's description of events they did leave the station without paying. As has been said many times, while a RoRA prosecution requires evidence of intent, a Byelaws prosecution does not.

 

[furlong]

As I said above, a Byelaws prosecution would be unfortunate, but according to the OP's description of events they did leave the station without paying.

What part of:

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey

do you not understand?