Stopped by revenue officers after leaving train

[RailUser1987]

I travelled on the train today without a ticket, but intended to buy on the train. As the train was packed, the ticket conductor did not come round. I left the train and headed to the station exit where I was subsequently unable to produce a valid ticket upon request by the revenue officer.

I explained that the ticket conductor never came round and I offered to pay for my fare. The officer never allowed me to pay. He stated that he wouldn't be giving me a caution but took my details and said that the rail company would be in touch within 4-6 weeks, and if I didn't reply within 21 days they would instigate court proceedings. I asked about penalties etc and he didn't give me any information. I then walked up to the ticket office and bought the ticket that I should have bought earlier.

Am I likely to receive a penalty fare or a Court Summons in this situation? If I receive a Court Summons, would it worth disputing the prosecution based on the information provided above. I have no criminal record and a career in financial services so I am obviously fearing the worst!

 

[bb21]

Where did you travel from/to and at what time?

 

[Chapeltom]

I am making an educated guess, this is Northern Rail related.

 

[RailUser1987]

Yes, Northern Rail. The fare was a short journey.

 

[bb21]

Without knowing any detail of your incident, it is impossible to comment any further.

 

[NightatLaira]

Were you given an MG11?

 

[RailUser1987]

I wasn't given an MG11 or anything else for that matter. I was just informed that the train company would be in touch. The journey was from Chorley to Preston.

 

[bb21]

I hate to have to repeat myself but you really need to answer the questions asked in order to help us to help you.

What time was it when you left Chorley?

Is there any particular reason why you didn't buy a ticket from the ticket office?

 

[Fare-Cop]

I travelled on the train today without a ticket,

It seems that there were facilities available at the station from which and at the time when you travelled. Chorley booking office is open from 06.25 on a weekday and there are self-service ticket machines. Why didn't you get a ticket?

but intended to buy on the train. As the train was packed, the ticket conductor did not come round.

Were you given any permission by authorised staff to travel without a ticket and did you seek the conductor and offer your fare when on train or at the platform?

I left the train and headed to the station exit where I was subsequently unable to produce a valid ticket upon request by the revenue officer.

Knowing that you had not paid your fare, why did you head out of the station rather than going to pay at the ticket office on arrival?

I explained that the ticket conductor never came round and I offered to pay for my fare.

The inspector would recognise and note that if he had not been there to check, you were intending to leave the railway and had not paid your fare

The officer never allowed me to pay. He stated that he wouldn't be giving me a caution but took my details and said that the rail company would be in touch within 4-6 weeks, and if I didn't reply within 21 days they would instigate court proceedings.

It seems that he was following his company's standard reporting procedure.

I asked about penalties etc and he didn't give me any information.

It is not always possible for rail staff to quote specific penalties accurately in such cases because what the company decides to do will be based on the quality of evidence in any report

I then walked up to the ticket office and bought the ticket that I should have bought earlier.

This underlines the inspectors' thinking. If you knew you could buy a ticket at the booking office, why did you not go there and pay before attempting to go out of the exit and leave without paying?

Am I likely to receive a penalty fare or a Court Summons in this situation?

Penalty Fare Notices are issued at the time and Northern do not operate a PFN scheme.

If I receive a Court Summons, would it worth disputing the prosecution based on the information provided above. I have no criminal record and a career in financial services so I am obviously fearing the worst!

This is a prosecutable case and from your description it could certainly result in issue of a Summons.

You may be lucky, Northern sometimes allow an administrative disposal if there is no previous record of a similar matter, but they are not obliged to do so.

Charges that they might consider are:

i) 'did travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare and did attempt to leave the railway with intention of avoiding payment thereof'; contrary to Section 5(3)(a) of The Regulation of Railways Act [1889]

ii)'did travel on a railway without holding a valid ticket and without previously paying his fare;' contrary to National Railway Byelaw 18.1 [2005]

From the explanation that you have given I would not expect a challenge to be successful.

 

[island]

Chorley has a ticket office and ticket machines that are, AFAIK, operative at all times when trains run. As you chose not to use these facilities you committed a criminal offence for which you may be prosecuted.

Northern Rail does not operate a Penalty Fares scheme but does have an outwardly similar arrangement. In this case it would probably involve paying an administrative penalty of £85.40, in return for which the matter would be dropped. This is a once off opportunity so if you have previously had the benefit of such an arrangement it is unlikely to be offered again.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern Rail does not operate a Penalty Fares scheme but does have an outwardly similar arrangement. In this case it would probably involve paying an administrative penalty of £85.40, in return for which the matter would be dropped. This is a once off opportunity so if you have previously had the benefit of such an arrangement it is unlikely to be offered again.

When Northern Rail presented details of their penalty scheme to TfGM they said the first time passengers would make to pay their fare but would have their details taken and receive a written warning, the second time a £80 penalty would be issued (but only where posters clearly explain this at stations) and the third time it would be taken to court.

However, it seems at stations where there are no posters they are happy to go to court for a first time offence but offer a £80 out-of-court settlement in addition to the pay payable as an alternative. For some of the cases that have gone to court the court has ordered a total of something like £400 to be paid, on top of the unpaid fare so the £80 out-of-court settlement is the best option unless there is a genuine reason for not having a ticket e.g. power cut or system failure at origin station meaning both the ticket office and TVM couldn't issue tickets.

 

[pottyy]

I travelled on the train today without a ticket, but intended to buy on the train. As the train was packed, the ticket conductor did not come round. I left the train and headed to the station exit where I was subsequently unable to produce a valid ticket upon request by the revenue officer.

I explained that the ticket conductor never came round and I offered to pay for my fare. The officer never allowed me to pay. He stated that he wouldn't be giving me a caution but took my details and said that the rail company would be in touch within 4-6 weeks, and if I didn't reply within 21 days they would instigate court proceedings. I asked about penalties etc and he didn't give me any information. I then walked up to the ticket office and bought the ticket that I should have bought earlier.

Am I likely to receive a penalty fare or a Court Summons in this situation? If I receive a Court Summons, would it worth disputing the prosecution based on the information provided above. I have no criminal record and a career in financial services so I am obviously fearing the worst!

As far as I know the northern/g4s revenue team was at preston yesterday on so maybe u left via the subway entrance towards Debenhams

 

[455driver]

You chose not to buy a ticket before boarding the train despite there being an open ticket office and TVMs available, then at your destination you headed straight for the exit and not the ticket office so if you hadnt been stopped you would have travelled without paying so that is more than enough evidence of your intent to avoid payment.

The fact the conductor couldnt get round does not change the fact that the responsibility to purchase a ticket rests with you, normally before boarding the train except where no ticket purchasing oportunities exist at the station at which you started when it is permissable to buy on the train or at your destination.
I will repeat myself-
The fact you headed straight for the exit proves your intent to avoid payment.

If you had intended to buy a ticket why head for the exit?
Or did you mean you intended to buy a ticket if I had too?

 

[snail]

I will repeat myself-
The fact you headed straight for the exit proves your intent to avoid payment.

If you had intended to buy a ticket why head for the exit?

Not necessarily. If this was a Blackpool North train it will have arrived at Platform 1. There is a manual check on the overbridge between the platform and the ticket office.

There are ways of getting out of the station without passing the RPIs (as suggested by pottyy), if the OP did try one of these exits then I would concur with your opinion.

 

[Deerfold]

Not necessarily. If this was a Blackpool North train it will have arrived at Platform 1. There is a manual check on the overbridge between the platform and the ticket office.

But the OP said they had reached the exit.

I travelled on the train today without a ticket, but intended to buy on the train. As the train was packed, the ticket conductor did not come round. I left the train and headed to the station exit where I was subsequently unable to produce a valid ticket upon request by the revenue officer.

 

[Chapeltom]

This seems like an open and shut Regulation of Railways Act prosecution, a manned ticket office and facilities to buy at the starting station and a clear attempt to leave the destination station without paying.

Whether Northern do chose to leniently go with their £80 'offer' will remain to be seen in this case but they have clear grounds to prosecute on an offence that will result in a criminal record - based on the evidence that we have here.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Or did you mean you intended to buy a ticket if I had too?

Clear intent so far as their Lord Widgery & Judges Cummins-Bruce & Park were concerned in the Appeal case of Piers Corbyn (1978)

The Appeal Court concluded in essence that; if a traveller boards a train at a station without previously paying the fare and travels with the intention of paying that fare only if challenged to do so at some later time or date, that traveller may be considered to be intending not to pay if not challenged to do so.

In the words of Judge Cummins-Bruce 'That is quite enough to constitute an intent to avoid payment.'

Lord Widgery & Judge Park said 'I agree'

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Chorley has a ticket office and ticket machines that are, AFAIK, operative at all times when trains run.

Is the situation in any way different were the ticket office at Chorley to have been closed, and (noting that the OP was travelling to/via Preston), the only ticket machine is on the opposite platform?

(If I rightly recall, the only TVM at Chorley is on the Manchester-bound platform, not the ticket office side on the Preston-bound platform, and can only be readily accessed via a stepped subway passage - see station schematic... http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/html/NRE_CRL/plan.html?rtnloc=CRL )

 

[455driver]

The passenger has to allow sufficient time to get to the machine, queue up (5 minutes preferred but could be longer) and then get to the required platform before the train is due.

 

[Chrisgr31]

The passenger has to allow sufficient time to get to the machine, queue up (5 minutes preferred but could be longer) and then get to the required platform before the train is due.

As a matter of interest how early should one be expected to get to a station to buy a ticket? As a regular traveller one is likely to know how long you need to allow but irregular travellers won't.

 

[Yew]

As a matter of interest how early should one be expected to get to a station to buy a ticket? As a regular traveller one is likely to know how long you need to allow but irregular travellers won't.

Generally passenger charters say you will be served five minutes, or 10 minutes at busy times. However these documents have no legal standing and (unfortunately) would be of no use as a defence in court.

 

[fowler9]

As a matter of interest how early should one be expected to get to a station to buy a ticket? As a regular traveller one is likely to know how long you need to allow but irregular travellers won't.

To be honest I've always found Northern to be very generous. I normally allow five minutes and on rare occasions the station staff have said buy on the train which I have done with no problem. This morning due to problems at Lime Street there were all kinds of crowding problems but the staff were more than apologetic and understood people had trouble buying tickets. Also yesterday after working nights I dosed off on my train and woke up a good distance after my stop. The guard would not take my money. The ticket office where I got off was closed and the guard on my train back home again would not take my money. In short I don't bunk on the train and am intrigued by people who make similar mistakes to me but seem to end up in nightmare situations.

 

[185]

May be useful to mention that the revenue checks at Preston where the 'Trap' takes place are usually at the side exit at the end of the subway, not the Overbridge.

 

[cuccir]

Generally passenger charters say you will be served five minutes, or 10 minutes at busy times. However these documents have no legal standing and (unfortunately) would be of no use as a defence in court.

Better informed legal-folk can correct me on this, but I think that it would more true to say that no-one has ever attempted to use these as a defence in court. Whether this is the same as say that they would be of no use is somewhat different. I'd imagine that at the very least a decent solicitor would be able to use these as mitigation to persuade the judge to levy a smaller fine.

 

[455driver]

In short I don't bunk on the train and am intrigued by people who make similar mistakes to me but seem to end up in nightmare situations.

A few possible reasons-
1/ did you approach the guards and explain the situation at the earliest opportunity?
2/ Your disposition, people act in certain ways when they are lying.
3/ The good old attitude test.

 

[fowler9]

A few possible reasons-
1/ did you approach the guards and explain the situation at the earliest opportunity?
2/ Your disposition, people act in certain ways when they are lying.
3/ The good old attitude test.

Well I think you nailed it. Talking about yesterday I was woken by the guard and I told the truth. Second the ticket office where I got off was shut which did surprise me to be honest. Third I got on the train back to where I live right by where the guard was and told him what I'd done right away. He told me not to worry and checked where I was going later in the journey. I was more than willing to pay but no one would take my money and I didn't have any problem. I am always polite to railway staff and anyone else for that matter as I work with the public in my role and know that they have a tough job which doesn't get the respect it deserves. Either of the guards could have collared me but didn't for making a journey I hadn't paid for. I don't do it all the time but I have never had a problem with Northerns staff when I have made an honest mistake. I have never made a dishonest mistake.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Generally passenger charters say you will be served five minutes, or 10 minutes at busy times. However these documents have no legal standing and (unfortunately) would be of no use as a defence in court.

On the contrary.
If it is written in a document published by the prosecuting Railway Company which is directed at their passengers and specifically states a time which should be allowed for the purchase of tickets, then it would be an incomplete Defence which did not take Evidence from the Railway Witness to confirm that written declaration and to confirm that on te day in question, tickets were not being sold within that stipulated time, and then take Evidence from the Passenger that thay had waited for the stipulated time.
I would expect that in the absence of any other factors, the Prosecution would fail on that argument.

. . . . no-one has ever attempted to use these as a defence in court. Whether this is the same as say that they would be of no use is somewhat different.

Indeed, there is no Case Law which turns on this point.

I'd imagine that at the very least a decent solicitor would be able to use these as mitigation to persuade the judge to levy a smaller fine.

At the very least? I'd expect the failure to serve queuing customers within the time stipulated in a Company's 'Passenger's Charter' to be a lot more persuasive than that! Where the Prosecution turned on the failure to buy before travel, I would expect the Defence to turn on that failure.

 

[Howardh]

I once travelled from Lostock, and the guy was in the ticket office. However he had pulled the shutters down, and wasn't for opening them again just to sell me a ticket.

There is no ticket machine at Lostock. So to save any nonsense with revenue crew up the line, I took a photo of said office with the clock in the foreground, so if there was any question, if no-one believed that the office was closed when it should have been open I had proof.

In a court case, I don't have to provide any proof at all, shouldn't it be for the train company to prove the office was open and I simply didn't buy a ticket?

Even at Trinity Street the guy behind the window was often missing before the days of machines and digital photography.

The onus is on them to prove a crime has been committed. How can they prove it has?

 

[snail]

But the OP said they had reached the exit.

No, your quote says 'headed for the station exit'. From P1/2 most people doing this will pass a manual barrier just before it on the overbridge. The OP has said it was a Northern train, very few of these arrive at other platforms. It all sounds pretty straightforward to me.

 

[bb21]

The onus is on them to prove a crime has been committed. How can they prove it has?

The TOC will likely just point to the fact that it was during ticket office opening times.