Stopped by a ticket inspector

[fusionblue]

I have a zone 1 to 3 annual travelcard loaded onto an oyster with £50 credit and accompanying gold card. I was travelling between Farringdon and Shortlands earlier today.

Upon leaving the station, but before the ticket office, everyone's ticket is inspected. They scan my card, see i've got a travelcard and credit and let me go on. Then he mumbles "ohhh" and then asks (although i'm not entirely sure who this was aimed at) what station do i usually start at i the morning, so i tell them.
He mumble-replies "why do you have £50 on here?", "why do you have these unknowns?" and "what zone is catford in again?".

They ask do i touch in and i say no (it's zone 3 and i'm heading to zone 1...), and that i'm usually late in the morning and i have to choose between either missing the train to touch in, or running on to catch it so i choose the latter because its 2tph. He then continues to scan through the "unknowns" (which i presume means incomplete journeys) and then asks for my postcode three times, but doesn't write it down or take any details of any sort.

He lets me go, and says i should touch out. As i'm walking to the oyster box to touch out he runs back again, scans my oyster and asks for my postcode a fourth time.

I'm in 2 minds whether i should complain about this, because to me it was a waste of time. I had means to pay, i had a valid ticket and more than enough credit and stay within my zones as much as possible and i was still held up anyway.

But before i decide, what is the purpose of them taking my postcode?
What are they trying to determine?

 

[Anvil1984]

Im slightly lost which direction was the journey in? Also what is the relation to Shortlands station because that's in Zone 4. If you stated / ended your journey there did you tap in / out

 

[fusionblue]

I was going from Farringdon to Shortlands. All this happened at shortlands. And i did touch out after all this happened - there was no opportunity to do so in the subway while they were checking tickets.

 

[bb21]

Did you touch in at Farringdon?

 

[BrownE]

I was going from Farringdon to Shortlands. All this happened at shortlands. And i did touch out after all this happened - there was no opportunity to do so in the subway while they were checking tickets.

Shortlands is Zone 4. If you have a 1-3 Travelcard, unless you touch in (and touch out), then you are not paying correctly for your journey. The Revenue Protection Inspector is perfectly within his right to question you and to require you to produce your name and address on request (where they reasonably suspect you of committing an offence).

Were you interviewed under caution? I would imagine that the RPI will be taking your name and address that you registered your Oyster Card at and South Eastern's prosecutions Department will be writing to you. (Unless I've misunderstood you not paying for journeys)

I would suggest that you don't contact South Eastern.

 

[CyrusWuff]

It should be noted that the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National Rail services" (available for download here) and TfL Conditions of Carriage (available for download here) require you to touch in and out on every journey, regardless of whether you're using a season ticket or Pay As You Go. The TfL CoC state this as a MUST requirement, whereas the NR Oyster CoU state it as a SHOULD.

From an RPI's point of view, an Oyster with multiple incomplete journeys immediately looks suspicious, hence why you were queried...His diction could've been better though, by the sounds of it.

 

[Squaddie]

i'm usually late in the morning and i have to choose between either missing the train to touch in, or running on to catch it

How much time do you save by not touching in as you run past the Oyster readers?

He lets me go, and says i should touch out.

Would you have touched out if he had not stopped you?

 

[fusionblue]

Did you touch in at Farringdon?

Yes. I suppose this is also a positive side effect of the station being manned and gated at all times.

How much time do you save by not touching in as you run past the Oyster readers?
Would you have touched out if he had not stopped you?

Given i've caught the train by seconds before the door closes at least twice this week, i'd approximate about 30 minutes saved - to the next train.

And yes i would have touched out. And that's exactly what i did.

This was not an interview under caution - he did not ask any questions except why do i have £50 on my oyster, what zone is catford in and why is there "unknowns" on my oyster.

My frustration centers around the poor phrasing and relevancy of these questions: Why i have £50 on my oyster is entirely my choice so it's not relevant, you shouldn't be asking me what zone catford is in while giving me a blank stare and looking at his colleagues who are equally blank faced (because you should know this and/or have documents to tell you this), and if it wasn't for this forum i wouldn't have had an idea what "unknowns" meant (which is just railway jargon for incomplete journeys).

Conversely at catford when i'm stopped by the RPI's (several times this month) they don't bat an eyelid and i leave in a few seconds. This was my first time to shortlands.

There seems to be the thought that i was trying to avoid paying the fare. That's not the case because there was no means to touch out at shortlands at the base of the stairs before the ticket office (which is before the ticket readers).

In future i'll take the bus (which is what i did on the return trip).

 

[Clip]

Can I just ask where you live please?

You get off at Shortlands on this trip but you say that your normal journey is in zone 3. This may be why the inspector asked so many questions as having credit on an Oyster with unended journies with your 1-3 but getting off at a zone 4 station does look suspicious, like you could be doing it often without actually touching out and thus saving you money.

Not saying you do do this but that is how it will look like to an inspector - hence asking your postcode.

 

[Haywain]

Given i've caught the train by seconds before the door closes at least twice this week, i'd approximate about 30 minutes saved - to the next train.

In future i'll take the bus (which is what i did on the return trip).

I would suggest that the best thing you can do in the future is get to the station a couple of minutes earlier so that you have time to touch in. That will ensure that you don't get viewed with suspicion when you are travelling outside your zones.

 

[fusionblue]

Can I just ask where you live please?

You get off at Shortlands on this trip but you say that your normal journey is in zone 3. This may be why the inspector asked so many questions as having credit on an Oyster with unended journies with your 1-3 but getting off at a zone 4 station does look suspicious, like you could be doing it often without actually touching out and thus saving you money.

Not saying you do do this but that is how it will look like to an inspector - hence asking your postcode.

Catford. And i can appreciate what you're saying.

I get easily frustrated when people are saying something but not actually saying something, as he did. Does that make sense?

 

[Tetchytyke]

If someone has a Travelcard for zone 1-3 and doesn't touch in or out when travelling in other zones, then they are defrauding TfL and SouthEastern of at least £1 for every journey made. Having £50 credit on your card implies that you regularly travel outside of your zones and having a large number of unended journeys raises a suspicion you don't always pay for them. Having £50 credit on a annual Travelcard looks suspicious anyway, when I had a Z1-3 annual I probably spent about three quid a month on additional fares.

I don't see that the RPI has done anything wrong at all, as the behaviour on your Oyster looks suspicious. By repeatedly asking for your postcode he will have been making sure you are being truthful. Bear in mind, of course, that SouthEastern have just been stung for the thick end of fifty grand by someone not using their Oyster properly.

Of course the RPI isn't going to ask a direct question, it's much better to ask roundabout questions to allow someone to trip themselves up.

 

[fusionblue]

I just opted to put a big lump on some time ago and let it run down rather than topup repeatedly. This was before i switched to an annual travelcard.

I don't see anything suspicious in that approach either, to be honest.

Maybe i don't see the railway logic in this, but if he asks what's zone is catford in and i say (for instance) 4 then what's the difference? It's still 3 and the results are the same.

It's also worth pointing out that i can't say for sure whether any of these questions were aimed at me, or if he was talking to himself out loud. It seems a lot like the latter.

SET could actually gate the stations and staff them consistently like London Overground does (because then everyone who does the same thing will have a complete journey history), but that seems too sensible :P

 

[LexyBoy]

It sounds like he saw something that could be suspicious (unfinished journeys, edge of Z3), you admitted that you don't always touch in/out, and he was wondering whether he would be able to do you.

SET could actually gate the stations and staff them consistently like London Overground does (because then everyone who does the same thing will have a complete journey history), but that seems too sensible :P

SET is an entirely for-profit outfit; LO is a concession of TfL which is a public body and so able to pony up for large-scale infrastructure upgrades. If TfL had taken over SE Metro as mooted a couple of years ago, this could have happened (and the whole of SE London would have seen massive property price rises due to being on the Tube map rather than in here-be-dragons territory).

 

[fusionblue]

It sounds like he saw something that could be suspicious (unfinished journeys, edge of Z3), you admitted that you don't always touch in/out, and he was wondering whether he would be able to do you.



SET is an entirely for-profit outfit; LO is a concession of TfL which is a public body and so able to pony up for large-scale infrastructure upgrades. If TfL had taken over SE Metro as mooted a couple of years ago, this could have happened (and the whole of SE London would have seen massive property price rises due to being on the Tube map rather than in here-be-dragons territory).

I know SET is for all-the-profits, but i can dream

No harm done here i guess. I'd just like a little consistency with SET, but then i'm asking for quite a lot.

 

[MikeWh]

If someone has a Travelcard for zone 1-3 and doesn't touch in or out when travelling in other zones, then they are defrauding TfL and SouthEastern of at least £1 for every journey made. Having £50 credit on your card implies that you regularly travel outside of your zones and having a large number of unended journeys raises a suspicion you don't always pay for them. Having £50 credit on a annual Travelcard looks suspicious anyway, when I had a Z1-3 annual I probably spent about three quid a month on additional fares.

I don't see that the RPI has done anything wrong at all, as the behaviour on your Oyster looks suspicious. By repeatedly asking for your postcode he will have been making sure you are being truthful. Bear in mind, of course, that SouthEastern have just been stung for the thick end of fifty grand by someone not using their Oyster properly.

Of course the RPI isn't going to ask a direct question, it's much better to ask roundabout questions to allow someone to trip themselves up.

Ah good, Southeastern getting steamed up over Oyster again.

Firstly the £50k was nothing to do with Oyster per se. It was season ticket fraud. They haven't lost anything as the guy paid well over the odds to keep it out of court, and they certainly haven't lost anything from him on Oyster.

Secondly, the amount on the Oyster has no bearing on the likelihood of short paying. For all the RPI knows you might use the Thames Clippers or the cable car on a semi regular basis. An Oyster card can hold up to £90 and the higher auto top-up amount will put it up to almost £50 when triggered.

I know Shortlands very well (I'm near there right now). The two validators are outside the booking office in the car park. From what you've said I would definitely complain. Both Catford and Shortlands are stations where forcing everyone to touch in with travelcards would cause chaos. Whilst I agree that asking for your postcode more than once could be to check that you aren't winging it, but five times does seem excessive. And as for asking you what zone Catford is in, that's just stupid and unprofessional.

Southeastern need to know that the result of their action has cost them money.

 

[Clip]

I know Shortlands very well (I'm near there right now). The two validators are outside the booking office in the car park. From what you've said I would definitely complain. Both Catford and Shortlands are stations where forcing everyone to touch in with travelcards would cause chaos. Whilst I agree that asking for your postcode more than once could be to check that you aren't winging it, but five times does seem excessive. And as for asking you what zone Catford is in, that's just stupid and unprofessional.

Southeastern need to know that the result of their action has cost them money.

Not really when the OP lives in Catford but was in a zone 4 station holding a 1-3TC, Id say the RPI was trying to see if he would trip himself up which someone who was trying it on probably would end up doing.

 

[34D]

There is another similar thread to this.

I suspect the RPI thinks your registered address in zone 3 is an old address, and you regularly travel to zone 4 on your 1-3 ticket.

Now, if you have done this a couple of times, I suggest you don't rock the boat by complaining.

 

[30907]

A couple of additional points:

For Farringdon-Shortlands there is a perfectly good additional route changing at Herne Hill, with a 15 minute frequency during the day. This makes the claim by the OP that (s)he doesn't have time to touch in less convincing, sorry.

@MikeWh: saying the Oyster validators are "in the car park" at SRT is a little misleading as at least one (actually two, looking at the pix on NRE) is right by the doors into the booking hall and another two by the alternative entrance under the Up Fast.

Compared with the days when there was a single ticket collector on duty (I grew up there and commuted for several years) that seems perfectly adequate.

 

[yorkie]

A couple of additional points:

For Farringdon-Shortlands there is a perfectly good additional route changing at Herne Hill, with a 15 minute frequency during the day. This makes the claim by the OP that (s)he doesn't have time to touch in less convincing, sorry.

That's not the journey to which the 'not touching in' is applicable to. If it was, the OP would obviously have been very much 'in the wrong'!

There are insufficient readers at some stations to practicably allow every passenger to touch in/out without causing delays. If you have a pass that is valid for your entire journey, then I can see why people might not want to delay their journey.

 

[Clip]

That's not the journey to which the 'not touching in' is applicable to. If it was, the OP would obviously have been very much 'in the wrong'!

There are insufficient readers at some stations to practicably allow every passenger to touch in/out without causing delays. If you have a pass that is valid for your entire journey, then I can see why people might not want to delay their journey.

Also worth noting that the OP joined at Faringgdon where I do believe you can only touch in so its the end of the journey which is in question