Stopped at manual barrier

[jaytee123]

I commute to Manchester every day and always buy a monthly pass. This month my pass expired on the 5th, and as I was away overnight on Thursday I thought I would buy single tickets Thu/Fri and start my pass from Monday. I bought my single ticket into town on Thursday, but unfortunately was on auto pilot at the station last night and showed my expired pass to the guard at the barrier (I was dragging a large bag, I normally go through the machine).

I remembered as I was holding up my pass (and of course by the look on the guard's face!) that I needed to buy a single ticket and said I needed to go back to the ticket office, but he grabbed the pass from me and called the revenue protection officer over. I realise that I was being completely brainless, but I genuinely had no intention of not paying, I don't get out much and had only had 2 hrs sleep the night before, was rushing home to my kids and had a million other things on my mind! I do this return journey every day, always with a valid ticket.

The revenue protection guy took my details and said that someone would write to me, so I could explain that I'd made a mistake (he was nice enough, think he realised I was mortified and not your usual 'fare dodger'). But now, having read some of the threads on this forum, I'm really worried that I'm going to end up with a big fine, or even a criminal record .. any advice???

 

[island]

A wide range of people travel on the rail network every day, the majority of whom pay their fare, either by way of a season ticket (which can, by the way, be issued for whatever length of time you like between a month and a year as well as a week) or the purchase of a single or return ticket, perhaps on a smart card. A small number do not. Also, a wide range of people have various stresses and things on their mind, sleep deprivation, children to go home to, illness, not thinking straight due to medication, and so on. It never ceases to amaze how frequently these factors arise in connection with someone who therefore has a perfectly innocent explanation for their attempt to avoid a rail fare.

When you have thought about the situation again after a day or two of reflection, perhaps you will see why Northern Rail and the other Train Operating Companies, who have an obvious interest in ensuring everyone pays the fare due, may see incidents like this differently.

You didn't mention whether this incident happened at the start or end of your journey, nor at which station (Manchester Picc and Vic don't have barriers to shove tickets into), nor the station you commute from, nor the train operating company involved, so knowing these would be of some assistance.

The only indication I can give you so far is that Northern Rail has a general policy of dealing with first-time fare evaders by issuing an administrative penalty of £80 plus the single fare.

 

[jaytee123]

Thanks for your reply. It was at the entrance to Oxford Rd station where there are machines and a manned gate, I showed my pass directly to the guard, didn't try to hide it or sneak past. Obviously I was horrified when I remembered I needed to buy a ticket, I still have the one I bought on thurs, and I have a full payment record with northern rail going back 2 yrs. I buy monthly and weekly passes and buy daily tickets where there is an odd day between holidays etc. I am not really trying to make excuses, I can imagine how it looked, it drives me nuts when I see people who are clearly trying to dodge their fare!

Thanks again for replying, I will wait for my letter and expect to cough up £80 (i bought a ticket before getting on the train) and carry on kicking myself. We live and learn, even at my age!

 

[455driver]

Why buy singles and not return tickets?

 

[transmanche]

as I was away overnight on Thursday I thought I would buy single tickets Thu/Fri

Why buy singles and not return tickets?

I'm guessing that he wasn't going home on Thurs night and that only day returns are available for that journey.

 

[455driver]

I'm guessing that he wasn't going home on Thurs night and that only day returns are available for that journey.

If I knew I was going from A to B (for work) and then onto C I would have bought both tickets in the morning by either using the ticket office (if available) or ordering online and collecting them both from the machine in the morning. That way I wouldnt have to queue up twice! Its called forward planning.

 

[transmanche]

If I knew I was going from A to B (for work) and then onto C I would have bought both tickets in the morning by either using the ticket office (if available) or ordering online and collecting them both from the machine in the morning. That way I wouldnt have to queue up twice! Its called forward planning.

No, I think he was travelling A to B on Thurs and B to A on Fri - thus requiring two separate single tickets.

And ordinary people can (and do) just work on auto-pilot. I know there have been occasions in the past that I would have inadvertently travelled with an expired Travelcard season - if it hadn't been the fact they were rejected by the ticket barriers...

 

[455driver]

It is the passengers responsibility to ensure the ticket they are using is valid for the journey being made!

bearing that in mind, whose fault is it when somebody attempts to travel with an out of date season ticket then?

 

[transmanche]

It is the passengers responsibility to ensure the ticket they are using is valid for the journey being made!

Yawn...

Back in the real world, how do you deal with such situations? Well one way is by having penalty fares for dealing with honest mistakes, rather than simply prosecuting everyone.

And that's why many stations have ticket barriers, to check tickets before the passenger travels. If the ticket was manually checked before travel and the passenger wasn't in a compulsory ticket area, I don't see that any offence has been committed.

But it's not clear from the OP if the ticket check took place before or after travel.

 

[cuccir]

It is the passengers responsibility to ensure the ticket they are using is valid for the journey being made!

bearing that in mind, whose fault is it when somebody attempts to travel with an out of date season ticket then?

What's the point of this post (unless it was responding to CNash's deleted post- in which case, apologies for the forthcoming rant )?

The poster has admitted fault. They did have a valid ticket on them, but showed the incorrect one. It's possible that they did this with the intention of using the other ticket later, we don't know that. At no point have they abrogated responsibility, but equally I think it's reasonable to feel frustrated when pulling the wrong ticket out results in either a penalty fare equivalent (which is what the £80 fare is) or prosecution. It's possible to accept responsibility but still feel frustration!

BTW, I interpreted 'single' as meaning 'an individual ticket for that day' rather than a Single, as opposed to a Return, ticket.


Either way, hopefully this will result in the £80 penalty; this is the sort of situation that Penalty Fares more broadly are designed for.

EDITED - Apologies, misread initial post.

And that's why many stations have ticket barriers, to check tickets before the passenger travels. If the ticket was manually checked before travel and the passenger wasn't in a compulsory ticket area, I don't see that any offence has been committed.

This would only be relevant if the passenger was claiming to not be travelling, or if they were claiming to have not yet purchased/thrown away their ticket. To show an out of date ticket, when asked for one, would be interpreted in a court as hoping to use the out of date ticket, in order to save the in-date ticket for later use.

 

[island]

The poster has admitted fault. They did have a valid ticket on them, but showed the incorrect one.

That doesn't appear to be correct.

I showed my pass directly to the guard, didn't try to hide it or sneak past. Obviously I was horrified when I remembered I needed to buy a ticket

 

[cuccir]

That doesn't appear to be correct.

Yes, had just started to rewrite my post - misread it!

 

[CNash]

This would only be relevant if the passenger was claiming to not be travelling, or if they were claiming to have not yet purchased/thrown away their ticket. To show an out of date ticket, when asked for one, would be interpreted in a court as hoping to use the out of date ticket, in order to save the in-date ticket for later use.

Is it reasonable to expect to be let through a gateline after showing an expired ticket to a member of railway staff? It strikes me that any true fare evader would want to avoid any potential ticket inspections; an expired ticket should be spotted fairly easily, so it would be counterproductive to flash one to a staff member - let alone willingly approach the staff member and present the expired ticket to them!

(Disclaimer: I'm aware that this could be read as "if fare evaders get through on expired tickets, it's the staff member's fault for not spotting it at the gateline" - which is obviously not my intent.)

The consensus in this thread seems to be that leaving expired tickets in your wallet is now hazardous in and of itself - if you get mixed up and present one to railway staff when requested (or in this case, voluntarily in order to be waved through a gateline), even if you haven't yet travelled, then you've technically broken the RoRA and are in danger of prosecution!

 

[David Goddard]

Am I missing something here? The OP was trying to enter the system at the time he was stopped. He had not undertaken any travel for which he had not paid for.

Yes it comes across (in the eyes of revenue protection and the TOC) that he may have been attempting to travel with an expired travel card but the presence of the inspection actually prevented this from happening. An automatic gate would have rejected the ticket with a suitable error code, highlighting the ticket had expired, that is all the revenue block should be doing, not automatically deciding that the user is a criminal when they have not even entered the "paid" side let alone step foot on a train. "Sorry your ticket has expired Sir, please go and purchase a new one" suffices in most cases.
Its not like it happened at the exit to the station when travel has already taken place, so a debt would have been due to the TOC.

This case alone highlights that these revenue protection blocks (particularly at Northern stations, which seem to produce the most adverse reports on this forum) are being allowed to get away with anything, which is not right at all, and many people are being prosecuted for innocent mistakes which are being dealt with in completely the wrong way.

 

[cuccir]

It's not a case of either this forum, or revenue gatelines, interpreting rules. It's a case of following legal precedent. In my - non-professional - understanding the case of Corbyn v Saunders is taken to apply, in which it was ascertained that the defendant did not have to show a permanent intent to avoid payment, just one payment-avoiding action: in other words, the court interpreted that it was illegal to do one thing that avoided payment, irrespective of future actions and claims to the otherwise.

In this case, the initial act is taken as intent to avoid payment. Subsequent actions are irrelevant,

BUT - Yes. As someone who is not a lawyer, I very much see that this leads to a situation in which someone accidentally, either through habit or forgetfulness, showing an expired ticket will be interpreted as a fare evader. However, the reasonable proposition is always thus: if I could try and show an out of date ticket, in the knowledge that if corrected I could always buy a new one, why would I ever purchase a new ticket unless prompted? Our system is based upon mitigating against the risks of having a largely 'open' network, in which one can mainly enter without passing automatic barriers. Of course, one could always hire a lawyer and challenge the precedent...

PS - I repeat that the above is informed by Google, not a professional knowledge!

 

[transmanche]

It's not a case of either this forum, or revenue gatelines, interpreting rules. It's a case of following legal precedent. In my - non-professional - understanding the case of Corbyn v Saunders is taken to apply, in which it was ascertained that the defendant did not have to show a permanent intent to avoid payment, just one payment-avoiding action: in other words, the court interpreted that it was illegal to do one thing that avoided payment, irrespective of future actions and claims to the otherwise

I don't see any similarity. In Corbyn vs Saunders the defendant showed intent to avoid payment - albeit not permanently. And in that case the ticket inspection happened after travel took place.

But that's by the by. In the real world, you don't resolve simple mistakes like this by resorting to the law. You do exactly what an automatic ticket gate would have done: reject the ticket and direct the passenger to 'seek assistance'.

 

[Romilly]

I buy monthly and weekly passes and buy daily tickets where there is an odd day between holidays etc.

If your "passes" are National Rail season tickets then, as well as weekly, monthly and annual season tickets, you can also buy a season ticket for any period between 1 month and 1 year.

So if you are about to buy a monthly ticket that would start on a Monday and end on a Wednesday, instead buy a season ticket for 1 month and 2 days as that will take you through to the Friday. That avoids forgetting to buy day tickets for odd days (and, if managed carefully to avoid paying for holidays and non-travelling weekends, can get your travelling costs down to around the price of an annual ticket without having to make the up-front payment)

 

[BurtonM]

In my opinion it seems a little unfair that OP wasn't allowed back to buy a ticket seeing as he never even got past the gateline, and openly admitted his mistake.
Then again I'm 90% sure we're talking about G4S employees, so their course of action comes as little surprise to me.
OP: I think the best course of action is what you intend to do: explain everything how you have here, say you're willing to make a settlement offer, and see what Northern say. Best case, they drop the matter, but I think it's most likely you'll end up paying the £80 and that'll be that.

 

[bramling]

I don't see any similarity. In Corbyn vs Saunders the defendant showed intent to avoid payment - albeit not permanently. And in that case the ticket inspection happened after travel took place.

But that's by the by. In the real world, you don't resolve simple mistakes like this by resorting to the law. You do exactly what an automatic ticket gate would have done: reject the ticket and direct the passenger to 'seek assistance'.

Just out of interest, say I enter a Northern Rail station with no ticket, simply intenting to spend some time on the platforms taking photos (or for that matter simply enjoying watching trains). When I go to leave the station, I find there is now a revenue block in place. I politely explain that I have not travelled, and I'm presuming there is no signage in place stating that the platform is a 'Compulsory Ticket Area' since Northern Rail do not operate a PF scheme.

What would be the likely outcome? Obviously Northern Rail would not be able to prove I travelled as there would be no CCTV evidence of alighting from a train, and in theory there should be CCTV to back up the fact that I was on the platform for the whole time.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm presuming there is no signage in place stating that the platform is a 'Compulsory Ticket Area' since Northern Rail do not operate a PF scheme.

There is no predictable relationship between the existence of CTAs and PF schemes, you cannot really assume that a PF area will have any CTAs at all, SWT have none for instance...