Stoke to Derby - again!

[Mugby]

Problems returned this evening. I was waiting for the 18.33 Stoke - Derby which arrived on time but was terminated at Stoke due to signalling problems in the Caverswall area. It then returned to Crewe, forming what should have been the 18.34 service.
Platform staff told us to wait for road transport which would take about an hour to organise. In the meantime, the 17.42 from Derby which should have been the 18.34 to Crewe arrived at Platform 2, so it must have got through somehow. It continued to Crewe about 45 mins late.
The 19.33 to Derby was then displayed as cancelled.

The next step was quite astounding. The Virgin staff at Stoke told us they had been advised by EMT that the nearest place they could source a bus was SHEFFIELD!
They then did a headcount of pasengers which by this time included the ones for the 19.33 service, with a view to organising taxi's.
They eventually managed to get the Uttoxeter and Tutbury passengers away just before 20.00 but there was some confusion with the taxi people about the remaining numbers and the size of taxi required.
Five of us plus luggage managed to squeeze into a people carrier and left for Derby at 20.15. I don't know if anyone remained and presumably any passengers who may have been waiting at intermediate stations were left to their own devices.

It demonstrated quite starkly that EMT have no contingency whatsoever for this sort of thing. It's obviously something that Virgin staff would prefer not to be burdened with, why should they be. Information was virtually non-existant for the simple reason, there wasn't any!

With nothing at Derby to form either the 19.42 or 20.42 departures to Crewe even if the problems had been resolved, it's been another sorry night for the cinderella line!

 

[FGW_DID]

It seems that you expect TOCs to have alternative transport on permanent standby, unfortunately when called upon the coach operators may already be fully utilised so then the search begins for an operator who can provide a service and if maybe that means bringing a coach in from miles away, what would you prefer, a coach (which may take some time) or just to be abandoned to your own devices (and own cost)?

 

[johnnychips]

It seems that you expect TOCs to have alternative transport on permanent standby, unfortunately when called upon the coach operators may already be fully utilised so then the search begins for an operator who can provide a service and if maybe that means bringing a coach in from miles away, what would you prefer, a coach (which may take some time) or just to be abandoned to your own devices (and own cost)?

Taxis are usually available outside railway stations, and if buses are that hard to organise, should be used by the TOC.

Can't resist saying that in BR days (about 1984) me and my mate missed the last train from Leeds to Donny because of a late train from Halifax, and they organised a DMU for just us two. Lord knows why they didn't put us in a taxi.

 

[GadgetMan]

Taxis are usually available outside railway stations, and if buses are that hard to organise, should be used by the TOC.

Can't resist saying that in BR days (about 1984) me and my mate missed the last train from Leeds to Donny because of a late train from Halifax, and they organised a DMU for just us two. Lord knows why they didn't put us in a taxi.

It may have been an empty stock movement that would've taken place anyway. We often convey passengers on our late night empty stock movements if they've come off late running trains. It saves my TOC the cost of putting them in Taxis and it makes the passengers feel special as they go home thinking the railway company ran a Special train just for them.

 

[Mugby]

It seems that you expect TOCs to have alternative transport on permanent standby

I don't expect that at all, what a trite suggestion!
However, is it beyond the wit of any TOC to have arrangements in place at certain strategic locations, a coach or bus company which is likely to be able to help. I suspect that EMT always attempt to source road transport from the Stagecoach group and it may well be that Sheffield is the nearest available for Stoke-on Trent. The impracticality of this is plainly obvious and a large group may not have any spare capacty, either vehicles or drivers anyway, whereas a local operator would be able to respond much more readily.

 

[TEW]

TOCs tend to try and get whatever is available, but finding coaches and drivers just lying around ready and waiting can be problematic. Especially at weekends, when the usual companies are already likely to be providing rail replacement services and at school starting/finishing times, when most coaches are in use on school contracts.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Generally speaking, the TOC themselves doesn't directly source the rail replacement bus/coach. This, and the gerneral organisation of rail replacement services, is usually contracted out to a third party. In the case of EMT, this is Stagecoach Rail Replacement. First Rail Support is another. Arriva and NatEx both have rail replacement divisions too. There may well be others too - Fraser Eagle were in this business before they went bust.

The rail replacement company then invite bus and coach companies to register with them, agreeing rates for short-notice/emergency rail replacement, confirming approximate vehicle availability (ie. what size/type(s) of vehicle they usually have available at certain times) and exchanging relevant direct/out of hours contact details. At 1830 on a Saturday evening, you're not likely to get a coach company answering the general public telephone listed in the Yellow Pages or such, so Stagecoach RR are pretty much limited to operators that have already registered with them. Bear in mind that most EMT work is a good way away from Stoke - there's a fair chance that not a great deal of 'local' operators are registered with them. I know of one local operator that is registered with them, another that used to be but I'm not sure if they still do work for them and another 2 that are no longer operating.

In many cases, the coach operator is may have to persuade a driver to do overtime - not an easy task on a Saturday evening! Many operators are also likely to be tied up on football work on a Saturday, besides those that may already be involved in rail replacement work for Stagecoach or anyone else.

Unfortunately, arranging rail replacement transport really isn't as simple as you might expect.

As an aside, back when Virgin rail replacement was contracted out to Fraser Eagle, it wasn't unknown for pre-planned rail replacement services from Stoke to Crewe/Stafford/Macclesfield, during blockades around Stoke, to be operated by coach companies from as far away as Scotland! Indeed, one Ayr based operator even sent a campervan down with his coaches!

 

[Welshman]

I suppose an alternative could have been sending Derby passengers via Birmingham, c/o XC trains! [Stoke d. 1844 or 1907; Birmingham N.St a. 1933 or 1959, d. 1949 or 2030; Derby a. 2034 or 2121].

I appreciate that would have been no help for those wanting intermediate stations, but Derby passengers could have been arriving some 19 minutes after they were only leaving Stoke!

Or is the idea of sending rail passengers by rail too radical?

 

[sd0733]

When the line was closed last weekend they were advising people at crewe travelling to derby to use trains to birmingham and change there. Maybe changing at tamworth could work aswell if the connections work but iv never heard this advised at stations.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

You're lucky to get anything. In my experience EMT are by far the WORSE TOC in handling passengers after any disruption.
After being stuck on a stalled train outside Boston for 2 hours the train was eventually propelled back into the station where absloutely no information or advice was given. We abandoned our plans to continue to our destination and headed home by a mixture of bus and rail.
After a fatality North of Leceister the train limped back into St.Pancras in the early hours. Assurances were made on board that transport home would be provided but the reality seemed to be to make people wait around for so long that they would eventuall go away - which most actually did.
Even with planned works they have provided inadequate replacement services.
Maybe we can have a section on here for our tales of woe when travelling and add them up to find out who really is the worse TOC.

 

[DarloRich]

I don't expect that at all, what a trite suggestion!
However, is it beyond the wit of any TOC to have arrangements in place at certain strategic locations, a coach or bus company which is likely to be able to help. I suspect that EMT always attempt to source road transport from the Stagecoach group and it may well be that Sheffield is the nearest available for Stoke-on Trent. The impracticality of this is plainly obvious and a large group may not have any spare capacty, either vehicles or drivers anyway, whereas a local operator would be able to respond much more readily.

No - I am sure the TOC will have a call off contract with a service provider who then source transport to fill that contract. The provider will try to obtain transport as close as possible to problem using their contacts.

Alternatively, they may have a framework contract with a number of providers and simply ring round until one agrees to resource the contract. I bet Sheffield was the first place that had suitable resources to answer the call.

That will work out cheaper for the company or group rather than a Derby bus contract and a Stoke bus contract and a Nottingham bus contract and a Lincoln bus contract and so on.

Using your scenario what should they do if the local providers can not provide vehicles in your arrangement? Do you propose paying a retainer so the local company keep a vehicle and driver on standby at all times? I would suggest this is both expensive and preposterous on the off chance of a failure.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Buses due to replace trains between Stoke & Uttoxeter until further notice, due to flooding at Blythe Bridge.

 

[Mugby]

Using your scenario what should they do if the local providers can not provide vehicles in your arrangement? Do you propose paying a retainer so the local company keep a vehicle and driver on standby at all times? I would suggest this is both expensive and preposterous on the off chance of a failure.

Not exactly, no, but in the event of a failure or cancellation, it's a simple matter, either there's a contingency plan in place or there isn't.

It surprises me that the prevailing attitude seems to be, leave them!

 

[Lewisham2221]

Not exactly, no, but in the event of a failure or cancellation, it's a simple matter, either there's a contingency plan in place or there isn't.

It surprises me that the prevailing attitude seems to be, leave them!

There is a contingency plan, but it requires the cooperation/availability of a third party. I would imagine that the agreed rates with coach operators are considerably cheaper than a bunch of taxis, so if it means waiting a little longer, so be it.

 

[Trains06]

This may be a bit of a swooping statement but the Crewe - Derby seems to be affected by problems quite often...

 

[Clip]

I don't expect that at all, what a trite suggestion!
However, is it beyond the wit of any TOC to have arrangements in place at certain strategic locations, a coach or bus company which is likely to be able to help. I suspect that EMT always attempt to source road transport from the Stagecoach group and it may well be that Sheffield is the nearest available for Stoke-on Trent. The impracticality of this is plainly obvious and a large group may not have any spare capacty, either vehicles or drivers anyway, whereas a local operator would be able to respond much more readily.

Define a 'strategic location' for us please?

Also look at the time when this roughly happenned and guess what its towards the end of? School runs and drivers heading back to their depots and clocking off and also rush hour up and down the land.


Rounding up buses and drivers may sound simple but in practice when you need them there and then it does take a lot to get hold of them as they will either already be working or could even be off down the shops, so they then have to get home, change, get to the depot - may take a while - then get their coach/bus out - may take a while because look at the time!! Its RUSH HOUR in most cities so then they manage to get where they are.

If only everything was as easy as you may it out to be without any external factors then these issues wouldnt raise their heads, but in the real world this is what happens.

 

[Mugby]

Define a 'strategic location' for us please?

Also look at the time when this roughly happenned and guess what its towards the end of? School runs and drivers heading back to their depots and clocking off and also rush hour up and down the land.

I think I would define a large city as a strategic location.

And schools don't open on Saturdays - do they?

 

[bunnahabhain]

This may be a bit of a swooping statement but the Crewe - Derby seems to be affected by problems quite often...

It has had issues over the last few weeks, none of which were down to EMT. Signalling issues at Foley Crossing, and then water was 6" above the railhead after the snow thawed out. End result...no trains. So it doesn't matter whose name is on the side of the train, you would still have had no trains because the disruption has closed the line.

I think I would define a large city as a strategic location.

And schools don't open on Saturdays - do they?

Schools are not open, but the bus/coach drivers may be contracted a 5 day week, and that may include long days on Mondays through to Fridays, leaving them with no spare hours on a Saturday and Sunday.

 

[High Dyke]

Unfortunately, arranging rail replacement transport really isn't as simple as you might expect.

As an aside, back when Virgin rail replacement was contracted out to Fraser Eagle, it wasn't unknown for pre-planned rail replacement services from Stoke to Crewe/Stafford/Macclesfield, during blockades around Stoke, to be operated by coach companies from as far away as Scotland! Indeed, one Ayr based operator even sent a campervan down with his coaches!

Oh the heady days of working on rail replacement. Luckily i mainly got jobs close to home, but my brother did a stint of working Milton Keynes area services for Virgin (the coach firm being based near Sleaford, Lincs). I did a bank holiday w/end covering Peterborough - Grantham - Newark trips. Disorganised chaos reined many times as co-ordinators got more buses than passengers. Coach firms from across Britain worked out on that.

Another issue was timings. Ironically it was a job from Derby - Crewe etc. Got a semi-fast trip out: Derby-Stoke-Crewe only then sat at Crewe for over an hour before leaving there about 21:00 to work all stops back to Nottingham (due just after midnight - on paper). Allowed 45 minutes from Blythe Bridge to Uttoxeter and similar from Derby to Long Eaton. No wonder passengers were getting a bit mardy about it.

On the other side were the transport off a diverted service. Many times when ECML (BR Intercity) services were diverted via the GN/GE Joint Line on a Saturday evening had a taxi laid on from Sleaford to Home c/o the railway.