Stoke-on-Trent tram system plans (October 2022)

[thenorthern]

Seen this in the local paper.

New map reveals Stoke-on-Trent's three planned tram routes that will revolutionise city

Stoke-on-Trent City Council is inviting residents to have their say

Stoke-on-Trent could get its own tram-style system if plans to 'revolutionise transport' in the city are approved. Proposals for a very light rail (VLR) vehicle network are at the heart of a new strategy which aims to cut journey times, reduce congestion and increase social mobility.

Stoke-on-Trent City Council is inviting residents to have their say on the new transport strategy before it is considered by cabinet and full council next year. The online consultation will open on Monday and a number of in-person events are set to be held at as yet unconfirmed locations to allow as many people to share their views.

The VLR proposal would see the city's six towns connected by three main lines:

• The Northern line would connect Tunstall, Hanley, Stoke railway station and Longton;
• The Central line would run through Etruria, Hanley, Bentilee and Longton, and;
• The Southern line would take in Stoke railway station, Longton, Trentham, Royal Stoke hospital and Newcastle.

New map reveals Stoke-on-Trent's three planned tram routes

Stoke-on-Trent City Council is inviting residents to have their say

www.stokesentinel.co.uk

Would be nice to have a tram in Stoke-on-Trent but I doubt it will ever be built. Also with the fragmented nature of Stoke-on-Trent and it's 6 towns I suppose it's much harder to create a tramway as there is not a center like in most cities.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Very large pie in a very blue sky.

Anyone would think the whole council is up for re-election next year.

For a council which will not subsidise bus services at all (one route is supported using developer section 106 money) this is, shall we say, surprising. Just where are they going to find the money for the large capital investment then the ongoing subsidy? We get more like a whacky sub-Saharan country every day. Promise loads of sweeties, then deliver nothing. The current council leader promised to 'take control of bus routes and fares' last time around - not 'look into it' or 'consider it' but to 'do it'. I kept the election leaflet as evidence of her promise!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Seen this in the local paper.



Would be nice to have a tram in Stoke-on-Trent but I doubt it will ever be built. Also with the fragmented nature of Stoke-on-Trent and it's 6 towns I suppose it's much harder to create a tramway as there is not a center like in most cities.

I wouldn't say it lacks a centre as such, maybe less centralised than some cities but Hanley is pretty well established as the "commercial centre" for shopping etc.

 

[thenorthern]

I wouldn't say it lacks a centre as such, maybe less centralised than some cities but Hanley is pretty well established as the "commercial centre" for shopping etc.

Much less than other cities, Stoke Town still has quite a large amount of major retail and so do the other towns.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Much less than other cities, Stoke Town still has quite a large amount of major retail and so do the other towns.

True... but that needn't be a deal breaker. In fact, a more polycentric city won't suffer from everyone needing to go to the same handful of central stops in the morning rush hour- compare that to Leeds where all the demand would be for a relatively small central area of the city at 0830.

I agree that it's very much pie-in-the-sky at this point, but the routes outlined seem sensible, and seem to cover most of the main nodes within the six towns.

 

[A0]

Seen this in the local paper.



Would be nice to have a tram in Stoke-on-Trent but I doubt it will ever be built. Also with the fragmented nature of Stoke-on-Trent and it's 6 towns I suppose it's much harder to create a tramway as there is not a center like in most cities.

Given the Stoke area is struggling to support and sustain a viable bus network - how does building a tramway at huge cost stack up ?

All the other cities where recent tram networks have been built - Manchester, Nottingham, Birmingham, Sheffield, Croydon have all got large and reasonably viable bus networks already. It seems that building a tramway in a place which isn't supporting a viable bus network is a quick way to spend alot of money and end up with a loss making white elephant.

 

[thenorthern]

Given the Stoke area is struggling to support and sustain a viable bus network - how does building a tramway at huge cost stack up ?

All the other cities where recent tram networks have been built - Manchester, Nottingham, Birmingham, Sheffield, Croydon have all got large and reasonably viable bus networks already. It seems that building a tramway in a place which isn't supporting a viable bus network is a quick way to spend alot of money and end up with a loss making white elephant.

First Potteries is relatively good as a bus network although it's not very consistent in terms of routes staying the same over the years. Also it doesn't integrate well with the railway.

One of the problems with trams though will be that the topography of Stoke-on-Trent isn't very friendly for railed vehicles as it's relatively hilly. I know Sheffield is equally hilly and has a tram network although the trams had to be specially designed for Sheffield.

 

[A0]

First Potteries is relatively good as a bus network although it's not very consistent in terms of routes staying the same over the years. Also it doesn't integrate well with the railway.

One of the problems with trams though will be that the topography of Stoke-on-Trent isn't very friendly for railed vehicles as it's relatively hilly. I know Sheffield is equally hilly and has a tram network although the trams had to be specially designed for Sheffield.

Bit in bold - presumably there's a lack of demand, otherwise from a commercial perspective First Potteries would be sending more buses to the station?

Again - if there isn't the demand for a bus, why would there be demand for a tram?

To put it in context the 7 miles Brierley Hill extension of Midland Metro is costing £449m - that's over £50m / mile, comparable with heavy rail. If even a small - 10 mile - system would cost £500m, that would buy a heck of a lot of bus improvements and yield more benefits more quickly.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Isn't it near enough a 2020s refresh of the Stoke ftr plans that Stoke/First had?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

First Potteries is relatively good as a bus network although it's not very consistent in terms of routes staying the same over the years. Also it doesn't integrate well with the railway.

One of the problems with trams though will be that the topography of Stoke-on-Trent isn't very friendly for railed vehicles as it's relatively hilly. I know Sheffield is equally hilly and has a tram network although the trams had to be specially designed for Sheffield.

Plenty of hilly places have trams, you've even cited Sheffield but there's also Prague and Lisbon to give just two examples. Sheffield's trams did need to be capable of handling the hills but it wasn't anything new to the manufacturer that required bespoke features.
There are several issues with the idea of bringing trams to the Potteries, but hills really aren't the deal-breaker.

 

[HSTEd]

To put it in context the 7 miles Brierley Hill extension of Midland Metro is costing £449m - that's over £50m / mile, comparable with heavy rail. If even a small - 10 mile - system would cost £500m, that would buy a heck of a lot of bus improvements and yield more benefits more quickly.

For a few years before the bus system burns through the accumulated cash and closes up shop again.

Buses consume enormous quantities of labour to conserve capital spend - and that simply is not sustainable in our modern high-labour-cost world.

 

[A0]

For a few years before the bus system burns through the accumulated cash and closes up shop again.

Buses consume enormous quantities of labour to conserve capital spend - and that simply is not sustainable in our modern high-labour-cost world.

You need far more people to run a tram network than you do an equivalent size bus network. The difference us the tram network needs *far more* up front spend to build the infrastructure and buy the vehicles.

Eg. In 2012 a single M5000 for Manchester Metrolink cost £2m which is about £2.75m in 2022 prices. Last year Stagecoach bought 13 new buses for Perth for about £4.8m.

 

[daodao]

The original Potteries tram network closed as early as 1928, which indicates that it really wasn't viable post WW1. New tram systems to serve smaller conurbations such as the Potteries are really not affordable or value-for-money in the current financial climate.

And that is before noting that the proposed network barely serves Newcastle and the Royal Stoke Hospital (RSH), and does not extend to Keele University, presumably as these places are essentially outwith the City of Stoke (the RSH is just in Stoke but on its boundary). If ever built, the core network should really follow bus routes 3 from Kidsgrove to Hanley (via Tunstall and Burslem) and 25 from Hanley to Keele (via Stoke, RSH and Newcastle), with a branch from Stoke to Longton via Fenton. Such a network would link the key traffic generators, with a hub adjacent to Stoke railway station.

 

[Benters]

The original Potteries tram network closed as early as 1928, which indicates that it really wasn't viable post WW1. New tram systems to serve smaller conurbations such as the Potteries are really not affordable or value-for-money in the current financial climate.

And that is before noting that the proposed network barely serves Newcastle and the Royal Stoke Hospital (RSH), and does not extend to Keele University, presumably as these places are essentially outwith the City of Stoke (the RSH is just in Stoke but on its boundary). If ever built, the core network should really follow bus routes 3 from Kidsgrove to Hanley (via Tunstall and Burslem) and 25 from Hanley to Keele (via Stoke, RSH and Newcastle), with a branch from Stoke to Longton via Fenton. Such a network would link the key traffic generators, with a hub adjacent to Stoke railway station.

Totally agree, the current plan is flawed as it does not fully integrate Newcastle and Keele University into the proposed network. Both are potential sources of revenue-Newcastle being a large population centre within the Potteries and Keele for the student traffic (would encourage them to use cars less). Having visited Keele University several times on business in recent years (by road from Stafford), I would say a connection from Stoke/Hanley to Newcastle and Keele is a must for any proposed network.