Stoke-London, Any day - cheapest train?

[Keele13]

Hi all,

A colleague of mine wishes to travel from Stoke-on-Trent to London Euston, returning on the same day. It doesn’t matter when he goes – any week day in the next month or so would work.

I’ve looked at the various cheapest fare finders, and they all seem woefully out of date. It says there are £15 Virgin tickets available, for example, but when you proceed to the next step they're suddenly £97! Are any of them better (i.e. more up to date) than others?

 

[RJ]

Cheapest walk up ticket would be a LM only Super Off Peak return at £22.50. You can't arrive in London before 13:00 and have to leave again by 18:29.

£15 might be a headline price but those Advance fares are subject to availability - you do have to proceed further to find out what is actually available to buy.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If your colleague is prepared to travel from Stoke-on-Trent to London and return by the slower London Midland service, then there may well be some reasonably cheap tickets available, if there is nothing doing on Virgin Trains services.

Prices obviously depends on actual date and time of travel and degree of flexibility that your colleague wants to have.

 

[LexyBoy]

There are cheap Virgin Advances (and also absurdly expensive Advances!) available, for example:

Weds 6th April:
SOT-EUS dep 1250 arr 1423, £11.00
EUS-SOT dep 2000 arr 2123, £15.00

Generally however London Midland will be much cheaper and more flexible.

 

[Keele13]

Thanks - I was thinking an advanced Virgin fare down and a LM back might do the trick.

It's a shame the 'cheapest fare finders' aren't a little more user-friendly, though as I travel by train quite often and have never had cause to use them before, I expect there just isn't enough demand for anyone to invest in developing them a little more.

 

[SS4]

Thanks - I was thinking an advanced Virgin fare down and a LM back might do the trick.

It's a shame the 'cheapest fare finders' aren't a little more user-friendly, though as I travel by train quite often and have never had cause to use them before, I expect there just isn't enough demand for anyone to invest in developing them a little more.

[mode=cynical]Demand is plentiful, the unwillingness is on the TOC because they stand to make less money. For example you/your colleague would have plumped for an anytime return which are not cheap and the money goes to the TOC. Same principle applies to the more expensive advance tickets and especially for splitting.[/mode]

Super Off Peak is also valid out of London on or after 1930 if your colleague works late and it's also worth looking at first class to see if there are any advances left (I've found tickets cheaper in first than standard!)

 

[RJ]

Super Off Peak is also valid out of London on or after 1930 if your colleague works late

How do you propose somebody gets from London to Stoke on Trent with London Midland after 19:30, when the last LM train that goes down the Trent Valley/to SOT is the one that leaves Euston at 18:29?

 

[LexyBoy]

How do you propose somebody gets from London to Stoke on Trent with London Midland after 19:30, when the last LM train that goes down the Trent Valley/to SOT is the one that leaves Euston at 18:29?

19:54 London Euston [EUS] Stoke-on-Trent [SOT] 06:57 11h 03m 2 changes



Though it might take longer depending on whether the Off-Peak were accepted on the 0635 CRE-SOT.

Anyway, SS4 only said that it was valid, not that it was actually possible to use it!

 

[RJ]

19:54 London Euston [EUS] Stoke-on-Trent [SOT] 06:57 11h 03m 2 changes



Though it might take longer depending on whether the Off-Peak were accepted on the 0635 CRE-SOT.

Anyway, SS4 only said that it was valid, not that it was actually possible to use it!

What's the point in that then? Is the OP asking for advice on a same day return from Stoke - London or are they trying to find out who's the best at reading restrictions from Avantix?

 

[Pumbaa]

If travelling on this Sunday, he may purchase a LM Super Off Peak return for £22.50 and use the non-stop VT services

Thanks to LM not working as usual, I may get a sneaky quick trip to London and back for £14.

 

[bnm]

Should there not be a suitable combination of Advances on the day your friend intends to travel then there is also the option of purchasing either the LDN MIDLAND ONLY CDR or OPR and then purchasing a 'change of route' excess to the ANY PERMITTED SVR for the return portion allowing use of a later Virgin train home out of Euston

I make the totals £41.60 for the OPR to be excessed one way to the SVR, or £44.35 for excessing the CDR.

 

[bb21]

Aren't operator-specific tickets not excessible?

 

[island]

That depends on whom you ask. They're not excessable on-train, but some say you can excess them at a booking office.

 

[bnm]

Aren't operator-specific tickets not excessible?

Well, Advance Purchase tickets are excessable up to the cheapest available single, which could quite easily be an ANY PERMITTED, so it would be seem a bit unfair to not allow operator specific walk-up tickets to be excessed.

 

[RJ]

Should there not be a suitable combination of Advances on the day your friend intends to travel then there is also the option of purchasing either the LDN MIDLAND ONLY CDR or OPR and then purchasing a 'change of route' excess to the ANY PERMITTED SVR for the return portion allowing use of a later Virgin train home out of Euston

I make the totals £41.60 for the OPR to be excessed one way to the SVR, or £44.35 for excessing the CDR.

It's not permitted do a change of route excess on dedicated tickets (walkup). This is in the NRCoC so why would you recommend it to anyone?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That depends on whom you ask. They're not excessable on-train, but some say you can excess them at a booking office.

More like they'll be sold a brand new ticket and advised to seek a refund on the unused portion of the ticket they hold.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, Advance Purchase tickets are excessable up to the cheapest available single, which could quite easily be an ANY PERMITTED, so it would be seem a bit unfair to not allow operator specific walk-up tickets to be excessed.

The rules are the rules, what is the point in recommending things that will get people chinged because you think the rules are "unfair?"

 

[bnm]

RJ, when you've got down of your high horse, can you quote me the relevant section of NRCoC that forbids an operator specific ticket from being upraded to an ANY PERMITTED?

The rules are the rules, eh? And we don't have dozens of examples on this forum where rules are ambiguous, open to interpretation, contradictory, don't cover specific examples, or are made up by staff?

Incidentally, I have an operator specific walk-up ticket that was excessed to Any Permitted - I believe I may still have it somewhere, so if I find it, I'll fire up the scanner.....

 

[premier01]

RJ, when you've got down of your high horse, can you quote me the relevant section of NRCoC that forbids an operator specific ticket from being upraded to an ANY PERMITTED?

The rules are the rules, eh? And we don't have dozens of examples on this forum where rules are ambiguous, open to interpretation, contradictory, don't cover specific examples, or are made up by staff?

Incidentally, I have an operator specific walk-up ticket that was excessed to Any Permitted - I believe I may still have it somewhere, so if I find it, I'll fire up the scanner.....

I'm not sure about TOC specific Off Peak to an Any Permitted Off Peak but on several occasions I have got an VT only Advance excessed to an Any Permitted Off Peak Single and Anytime Return again Any Permitted for £10 admin charge each time even when Advance ticket was more expensive than Off Peak tickets!

I'm sure it should just be change of route excess but need to check rules!

 

[Pumbaa]

Euston will quite happily excess LM Only fares to Any Permitted fares for the return portion of a ticket. As will Crewe and Lime Street actually.

 

[RJ]

RJ, when you've got down of your high horse, can you quote me the relevant section of NRCoC that forbids an operator specific ticket from being upraded to an ANY PERMITTED?

The rules are the rules, eh? And we don't have dozens of examples on this forum where rules are ambiguous, open to interpretation, contradictory, don't cover specific examples, or are made up by staff?

Incidentally, I have an operator specific walk-up ticket that was excessed to Any Permitted - I believe I may still have it somewhere, so if I find it, I'll fire up the scanner.....

You're giving out duff advice - hardly me being on a high horse, pointing out that fact, is it?

Condition 10 more or less says that use of dedicated tickets on prohibited trains is tantamount to not holding a valid ticket and that a refund may be available for unused tickets. It does not say they can be used on other TOC's services upon payment of an excess fare. So I feel it's only fair that I ask if you can quote any veritable source that says that this is allowed (considering that it's explicitly forbidden in the FRPP).

Saying that you've been sold such a ticket before doesn't mean anything other than somebody inadvertently sold you an invalid ticket. Anything is possible with my TiS, I can create manual fares, sell Priv rate Travelcards or fare override ALRs to 10p. It doesn't mean that they're valid for use because someone sells them. No doubt the accountants would be chasing up
why they have a £429.90 loss for an ALR issue.

Euston will quite happily excess LM Only fares to Any Permitted fares for the return portion of a ticket. As will Crewe and Lime Street actually.

Excess Fares are funny things, I do several as a matter of course on a daily basis, most commonly peak time upgrades and change of route. I don't do anything that will upset the powers that be, such as giving out free or discounted tickets without a very good reason which is backed up by official policy. Fare Overrides do flag up on the audit sheet and anyone who sells things that are anything less than completely above board should expect to be asked to explain why they did it. I say that excess fares are funny because you can do it any way you like - one neverending issue is time upgrading the return portion of a Saver where no SOR is available. Ask me and I will say the fare to be paid is the cheapest appropriate single. Ask someone else and they might say excess to an SDR, or equate SVR to CDS and charge the difference between SDS and CDS, or difference between CDR and SDR, or difference between CDS and whatever the cheapest available ticket is for immediate travel, one of many things. At the end of the day the traceable serial number and fare paid has to be input to validate an XS so any dodgy excesses are easily picked up on. In other cases, you have the issue of the formulae in the TiS not necessarily tallying with the latest changes in general policy.
Change of ticket type always charges for both directions, whilst overdistance/superior class/change of route charge half the difference if so selected.

If I was asked to excess such a ticket you've mentioned, I'd refuse as it's forbidden. If a non issue/reissue was not possible I'd advise of the refund procedure for unused tickets .

 

[bnm]

The excess fare makes it no longer an operator specific fare. Just as it often does when excessing up an Advance.

So, Condition 10 isn't really relevant. After the change of route excess the new ticket will show Route: ANY PERMITTED. The ticket is no longer operator specific.

So, I stand by my advice. I've had it done to a ticket of my own. No fancy tricks, dodges or wheezes, no manual fare was inputted. The clerk just went through the excess fares procedure on his TIS.

I did not get away with using an invalid ticket. The 'Route' field on my ticket was changed from SOUTHERN ONLY to ANY PERMITTED.

As in the advice I offered LDN MIDLAND ONLY is a ticket 'Route'. Excess fares procedures as laid out in The Manual allow a change of route.

 

[island]

I think the only thing we can get out of this discussion is that it's yet another inconsistency in National Rail!

 

[RJ]

The excess fare makes it no longer an operator specific fare. Just as it often does when excessing up an Advance.

So, Condition 10 isn't really relevant. After the change of route excess the new ticket will show Route: ANY PERMITTED. The ticket is no longer operator specific.

So, I stand by my advice. I've had it done to a ticket of my own. No fancy tricks, dodges or wheezes, no manual fare was inputted. The clerk just went through the excess fares procedure on his TIS.

I did not get away with using an invalid ticket. The 'Route' field on my ticket was changed from SOUTHERN ONLY to ANY PERMITTED.

As in the advice I offered LDN MIDLAND ONLY is a ticket 'Route'. Excess fares procedures as laid out in The Manual allow a change of route.

If you want to start talking about The Manual, what does it say about excessing dedicated tickets on the "Customers wishing to use Train Company-specific tickets on another Train Company's services" page? Is there any mention of this being a permitted scenario for excessing on the "Excess Fares and National Rail Conditions of Carriage" page? And what does it say about excessing Advance tickets on its page on the Ticket Finder under "Change the date or time of travel?" You don't even need The Manual for that last one, it's there in black and white on NRE.

Dedicated tickets cannot be used on another TOC's services (unless special circumstances apply) and the only permitted excesses for Advance tickets are those that either use the same route i.e AP SLOUGH to SLOUGH, or same TOC i.e AP LDN MID ONLY to LDN MIDLND ONLY. Otherwise the fare to be paid is the cheapest appropriate single. If a clerk or guard wants to do other things then it's at their own risk as all fare overrides are audited and they may well find they may or may not get chased up for it. And the fact that somebody did it for you is academic as it's possible to do literally anything on a TiS, whether or not you know it's right or wrong to do.

Having said that, some TOCs may have local instructions - these sometimes take precedence over the NRCoC if if gives the passenger more extensive rights than they're entitled to (and not at anyone else's expense). Contacting the Pricing Manager for the TOCs in question to verify this is the case would confirm whether this is the case.

Condition 10 of the NRCoC says that dedicated tickets cannot be used on another TOC's services (easements excepted). If you want to use one as part payment for another ticket hoping someone who doesn't know what they're doing will excess it up to Any Permitted for you, it is at your own risk as another member of staff could override that. They could retain the ticket and trace it back to the person who issued it. Imagine if someone had a London Midland SVR London - Brum for £30. Someone excesses it up to £44.30 prior to the passenger travelling. Do you think Virgin would sit back and let this happen frequently - LM get at least 91% of revenue on their dedicated Saver and by rules of ORCATS, Virgin are entitled to the lion's share of revenue for the Any Permitted Saver. The rulebook forbids this practice for a reason.

Think a Class 442 might become airborne before I agree that it's routinely allowed for dedicated tickets to be excessed to non TOC specific routed tickets.

 

[yorkie]

I'm told that TOC specific tickets are not "supposed" to be excessed. There is nothing physically preventing them being excessed. Some RPIs have actually reported on here that they do issue such excesses on the basis that they seem appropriate, no-one has ever shown them any documentation to indicate they should not be excessed, no-one has ever queried the excesses or told them to stop doing it.

So, it's the luck of the draw. Like most other excesses then, but makes it a bit harder because there's a few more people who won't do them. As always, shop around to get the best deals!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the only thing we can get out of this discussion is that it's yet another inconsistency in National Rail!

Yeah, the rule does appear to exist (I am assured by some people that it does, so I won't dispute the existence of it!), but it's a very silly rule, one that makes no real sense (the revenue argument is null and void, look at Route High Wycombe to Any Permitted, for example!) and the rule is also not very well documented. Therefore, if you are prepared to shop around, you will find someone prepared to do it. But I wouldn't have a go at staff who refuse to do it, silly though the rule may be, if they are told not to issue them due to this silly rule, we have to accept that. (Though it does seem reasonable to ask where this rule is documented!)

 

[premier01]

I'm told that TOC specific tickets are not "supposed" to be excessed. There is nothing physically preventing them being excessed. Some RPIs have actually reported on here that they do issue such excesses on the basis that they seem appropriate, no-one has ever shown them any documentation to indicate they should not be excessed, no-one has ever queried the excesses or told them to stop doing it.

So, it's the luck of the draw. Like most other excesses then, but makes it a bit harder because there's a few more people who won't do them. As always, shop around to get the best deals!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yeah, the rule does appear to exist (I am assured by some people that it does, so I won't dispute the existence of it!), but it's a very silly rule, one that makes no real sense (the revenue argument is null and void, look at Route High Wycombe to Any Permitted, for example!) and the rule is also not very well documented. Therefore, if you are prepared to shop around, you will find someone prepared to do it. But I wouldn't have a go at staff who refuse to do it, silly though the rule may be, if they are told not to issue them due to this silly rule, we have to accept that. (Though it does seem reasonable to ask where this rule is documented!)

I guess the confusion is with the definition of 'route' as although the TOC specific tickets show the TOC in the route section of the ticket it would seem that this isn't really a route but a restriction to the designated TOC and therefore a change of route excess isn't really appropiate.

I guess I'm trying to get some justification here for why it isn't allowed other than it's just another pointless rule!

As for excessing an advance ticket to an anytime ticket then this is very much allowed-providing it's the same starting station etc and it's done before the original service is scheduled and a result of this could be that a ticket that was TOC specific becomes Any Permitted-have done this before several times.

 

[RJ]

As for excessing an advance ticket to an anytime ticket then this is very much allowed-providing it's the same starting station etc and it's done before the original service is scheduled and a result of this could be that a ticket that was TOC specific becomes Any Permitted-have done this before several times.

National Rail's stance on "Changing the date or time of travel" on Advance tickets.

The origin, destination and
Train Company or route
shown on the ticket(s) must
remain the same.

Have you got any concrete evidence to suggest that any of these variables can officially be changed upon payment of an Excess Fare for Advance fares? IMO that quoted above is rather conclusive and not open to incorrect interpretation? Like I said, just because somebody did it for you, it doesn't mean it's officially permitted and the next person could quite rightly refuse to excess to Any Permitted if it's a dedicated or otherwise routed ticket. I certainly would, because I can read you the T&Cs that you agreed to by using the ticket (as quoted above). What could you point me to that would allow me to do it? Anyone taking rules out of context by quoting them partially need not reply.

 

[premier01]

National Rail's stance on "Changing the date or time of travel" on Advance tickets.




Have you got any concrete evidence to suggest that any of these variables can officially be changed upon payment of an Excess Fare for Advance fares? IMO that quoted above is rather conclusive and not open to incorrect interpretation? Like I said, just because somebody did it for you, it doesn't mean it's officially permitted and the next person could quite rightly refuse to excess to Any Permitted if it's a dedicated or otherwise routed ticket. I certainly would, because I can read you the T&Cs that you agreed to by using the ticket (as quoted above). What could you point me to that would allow me to do it? Anyone taking rules out of context by quoting them partially need not reply.

I am going to reply and not quoting from rules-on a mobile device-however point is not whether you can upgrade a TOC specific ticket e.g Milton Keynes Central to London SDS route VT only to

It seems that reply didn't save for some reason and also can't seem to reply to this post now so will edit this reply.

 

[RJ]

I am going to reply and not quoting from rules-on a mobile device-however point is not whether you can upgrade a TOC specific ticket e.g Milton Keynes Central to London SDS route VT only to

In that case it's a non issue/reissue, or in laymans terms refunding the original ticket then reselling the required one. That cannot be excessed to the Any Permitted SDS for use on LM services.

 

[First class]

Customers wishing to use Train Company-specific tickets on another Train Company's services

National Rail Condition Of Carriage, Condition 10, refers.
The validity of some tickets is restricted to services of a particular Train Company. Where the 'route' shown on the ticket specifies a particular Train Company name(s) for the main part of the journey it cannot be used on any other Train Company's service for that part of the journey unless authorised for this purpose (e.g. train service disruption).

No excess fare is charged and customers should purchase a new ticket to travel on the train.

The Train Company issuing the original ticket may provide refunds for unused portions of the customers’ original tickets. Administration fees may be charged.


Simplifier - Use of Train Company-specific tickets on another Train Company’s services

No opportunity to buy ticket before boarding

Railcard discounts: Yes provided the original ticket is discounted

Travel by a Train Company other than that stated on the ticket: Charge the appropriate Single or Return fare for the journey being made as if no ticket is held.

Opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding

Railcard discounts: No Railcard discount

Travel by a Train Company other than that stated on the ticket: Charge the full Single or Return fare for the journey being made as if no ticket is held.


Notes:

The above is subject to any local instructions;

Customer may be entitled to a refund on their original ticket;

Reference to ‘appropriate fare’ means the cheapest Single or Return ticket available for immediate travel on chosen service

............................

 

[premier01]

Euston will quite happily excess LM Only fares to Any Permitted fares for the return portion of a ticket. As will Crewe and Lime Street actually.

It seems my previous replies to this haven't saved-in summary I was not disputing the fact that TOC specific tickets can't be upgraded but standing by the fact that I think Advance tickets can be upgraded to an Offpeak or Anytime ticket:-

The fares processes describe this option:-

Condition 12 allows customers to travel on a day or train on which their ticket is not valid on payment of an excess fare, providing there is no change in the originating or destination station shown on the ticket:-

This does include Advance tickets-

Advance

Charge £10 admin fee plus the difference between the fare paid and the cheapest Single fare available for immediate travel on the journey being made

This seems reasonable to me and is something I have done several times-it's not a loophole and actually costs more as you have to pay extra £10-what's the point-well if travelling on business it is encouraged and can be claimed back.

As for a Preston to London ticket route not sure if that is classed as TOC specific to VT or not but makes no difference really as that is the logical route down to London-the stupid rule is pointless anyway as customer get refund on original tickets.

 

[RJ]

I wouldn't rely on that if I were you - remember that Penalty Fare rules and local instructions always take precedence over those Excess Fare procedures.