Steel rail - Is it not worth recycling?

[Belperpete]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y43ygj19no It still happens. NR also have been increasingly allowing heritage railways to salvage signalling equipment from Mechanical boxes being decommissioned. I think some heritage railways also sometimes get new materials paid for by a maintenance contractor training people for mainline certification.

At one time, heritage railways reusing mainline rail was common practice. Now it is so rare as to be newsworthy.

Likewise most heritage railways are signalled with equipment salvaged from the mainline. However, it is much easier to salvage redundant signalling components that are generally fairly portable, compared to long lengths of rail. It is also not unknown for those parts to subsequently be sold back to Network Rail!

 

[LYradial]

Is it not the case that we live in a throwaway world where everything is scrapped because even a simple fault costs more to fix than a replacemen.

we could apply the same to scrap cars, washing machines fridges etc.
we are awash with scrap metal mostly steel and other items.

 

[edwin_m]

Is it not the case that we live in a throwaway world where everything is scrapped because even a simple fault costs more to fix than a replacemen.

we could apply the same to scrap cars, washing machines fridges etc.
we are awash with scrap metal mostly steel and other items.

Most scrap metal is in fact recycled.

What isn't is generally because it's somewhere where the cost of recovering it exceeds the scrap value, and there's no other good enough reason to recover it. Which is why you won't see recycling of things like shipwrecks in remote locations - or odd bits of rail that are left lying around after a relaying.

 

[LYradial]

Certainly most non ferrous metals are recycled but I get the impression that a lot of scrap steel is lying round in ever increasing
piles hopefully to be eventually recycled.
ferrous metals will eventually rust away and recycle themselves.

the real problem in my view is plastic in all its forms, even synthetic fabrics are plastic

 

[NER1621]

Quite astonished at the number of contributors who, despite having the facts and relevant factors explained to them quite clearly, still insist that their “what I reckon” anecdotage still somehow qualifies as data.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Travel down the Brighton line and you will tonnes and tonnes of scrap rail, switches and crossing littering the lineside along with 1000's of one tonne ballast bags with plenty still fall of ballast that have been there so long they've rotted. The build up set in after Operation Storm (rerailing after Hatfield) where getting rail replaced was the priority then after that engineering access got constrained. Then layer on the ever restricted deployment of road railers with other lines open to traffic and the amount just kept growing. Maintenance used to get remunerated by National Delivery Service for every Tonne that was sent back as scrap as an incentive but not sure whether that arrangement is. There are economics to this now as engineers trains are best way to clear big stockpiles but they have to be hired in along with RRVs to recover it. Also as far as im aware the Long Welded Rail Trains were banned sometime back for being used for rail recovery so that means the added expense of cutting up rail into manageable lengths that an RRV can handle.

id also say there has to be some pride in a tidy railway still in play as its quite variable around the country as to how much scrap is left lying around.

 

[Belperpete]

Quite astonished at the number of contributors who, despite having the facts and relevant factors explained to them quite clearly, still insist that their “what I reckon” anecdotage still somehow qualifies as data.

This is a discussion forum....

 

[DarloRich]

I suspect time is the main constraint for collecting unused/old metal from running lines, rather than cost. I can very easily see why the old lengths of rail get left next to running lines, given the pressure on possession time these days

Is the correct answer. I can imagine the route director response to a possession overrun because scrap needed collecting!

At one time, heritage railways got a lot of their rail second hand from the national network. They could use rails that were no longer fit for mainline use, but were still okay for the low line speeds on preserved railways running under light railway rules. Nowadays most tend to buy new. I think that says a lot about the costs and difficulties of recovering scrap rail from Network Rail

They still do on a regular basis
However full life cost decisions may mean buying new rail is seen has more economically sensible.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Is the correct answer. I can imagine the route director response to a possession overrun because scrap needed collecting!

They still do on a regular basis
However full life cost decisions may mean buying new rail is seen has more economically sensible.

Back in the mid-late 1970's , much of Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth was the beneficiary of cascaded rail from the ECML upgrades in advance of the introduction of the HST sets ! - very thrifty indeed.

 

[Annetts key]

Also as far as im aware the Long Welded Rail Trains were banned sometime back for being used for rail recovery so that means the added expense of cutting up rail into manageable lengths that an RRV can handle.

I don't know about nationwide, but the team at Eastleigh was disbanded after an incident, the costs of making the required changes and the required retraining were deemed uneconomic with the amount of work orders reducing each year from the Delivery Units (DU).

The way that they (the DUs) now cut up old redundant LWR/CWR, is with a 360 fitted with a special attachment. This uses mechanical force to literally break the rail into manageable lengths. The breaks are stress breaks. You can see this because the ends are sharp and jagged and look very different to a rail cut with a disc cutter or gas axe.

 

[Acathater]

The way that they (the DUs) now cut up old redundant LWR/CWR, is with a 360 fitted with a special attachment. This uses mechanical force to literally break the rail into manageable lengths. The breaks are stress breaks. You can see this because the ends are sharp and jagged and look very different to a rail cut with a disc cutter or gas axe.

Presumably cutting the rail like that makes it realistically unsafe to reuse unless the ends are subsequently cut back again?

As for actually reusing/moving the redundant rail, I'm always surprised by the amount I've seen going down the motorway on lorries in the form of complete track panels, still with old rotting sleepers in place. Can't be very efficient in terms of maximising truck capacity

 

[Annetts key]

Presumably cutting the rail like that makes it realistically unsafe to reuse unless the ends are subsequently cut back again?

I assume the old rail is already too old or worn too much to be used elsewhere anyway. But yes, the ends would have to be cut cleanly using a disc cutter. And the they would have to be ultrasonically tested before they could be used on a main line or branch line.

 

[Steve Harris]

I don't know about nationwide, but the team at Eastleigh was disbanded after an incident, the costs of making the required changes and the required retraining were deemed uneconomic with the amount of work orders reducing each year from the Delivery Units (DU).

The way that they (the DUs) now cut up old redundant LWR/CWR, is with a 360 fitted with a special attachment. This uses mechanical force to literally break the rail into manageable lengths. The breaks are stress breaks. You can see this because the ends are sharp and jagged and look very different to a rail cut with a disc cutter or gas axe.

I'm presuming you mean that a pair of hydraulic shears have cut the rail ?(Similar to what is now used in demolition).

 

[AndrewE]

I'm presuming you mean that a pair of hydraulic shears have cut the rail ?(Similar to what is now used in demolition).

no, the thing is a hydraulic jaw with 2 teeth on one side and 1 on the other (like a thumb and forefinger.) I think thet shears cut...
It is amazing to see it just squeeze harder and harder until the steel snaps with quite a bang. I would never have thought that a big//thick flat-bottomed rail could be snapped like that.

 

[Steve Harris]

no, the thing is a hydraulic jaw with 2 teeth on one side and 1 on the other (like a thumb and forefinger.) I think thet shears cut...
It is amazing to see it just squeeze harder and harder until the steel snaps with quite a bang. I would never have thought that a big//thick flat-bottomed rail could be snapped like that.

That sounds like shears, just fancy one's, lol

 

[Annetts key]

no, the thing is a hydraulic jaw with 2 teeth on one side and 1 on the other (like a thumb and forefinger.) I think thet shears cut...
It is amazing to see it just squeeze harder and harder until the steel snaps with quite a bang. I would never have thought that a big//thick flat-bottomed rail could be snapped like that.

That sounds like shears, just fancy one's, lol

I've only been somewhat in the area of it when working once. As in one of the quotes above, it makes a very loud bang when it operates.

I was not inclined to go closer even if there wasn't an exclusion zone!

The break is like the rail was snapped rather than cut.

This is very different to the relatively slow hydraulic cutting tools used by the fire and rescue services (saw them practicing lots of times because I used to live near a fire station as a child).

 

[Steve Harris]

I've only been somewhat in the area of it when working once. As in one of the quotes above, it makes a very loud bang when it operates.

I was not inclined to go closer even if there wasn't an exclusion zone!

The break is like the rail was snapped rather than cut.

This is very different to the relatively slow hydraulic cutting tools used by the fire and rescue services (saw them practicing lots of times because I used to live near a fire station as a child).

I'm guessing it bangs is because it's not being cut but sheared (ie the blades of the shears are not sharp, it's actually the force of the 2 shears moving against each other which is shearing the metal in to), plus the high tensile nature of the steel will also come into play.

As an engineer I've heard 6mm mild steel plate bang when being cut on a guillotine with blunt blades and a incorrect cutting angle(/rake) applied.

And yes it would be different to a fire stations "jaws of life", I've operated a hand operated set of them (which operated in the 100's of psi, the shears your talking about typically work in the 1000's of psi, which makes one hell of a lot of difference in speed and force applied).

Btw, cutting and shearing are 2 different things, so yes the end wouldn't look like it's cut. Typically the end wouldn't be square (90°) and probably curves off slightly to the rest of the metal, similar to a length of bright mild steel flat bar when bought new from a steel stockists.

Getting back on topic... in years gone buy a reasonable amount of rail had been repurposed for use as part of a safety fence at banger racing tracks, although this has fell out of favour more recently for armco or boiler plate.

 

[AndrewE]

I'm guessing it bangs is because it's not being cut but sheared (ie the blades of the shears are not sharp, it's actually the force of the 2 shears moving against each other which is shearing the metal in to), plus the high tensile nature of the steel will also come into play.

As an engineer I've heard 6mm mild steel plate bang when being cut on a guillotine with blunt blades and a incorrect cutting angle(/rake) applied.

maybe you didn't see the comment that the rail has a grey crystalline surface after being broken. "Shearing" is cutting in most people's usage, with blades in contact doing the cutting. A brittle fracture doesn't result from something being cut. I interpreted what I saw and heard as the rail being bent over a short length (i.e. between the 2 outer jaws) beyond its elastic limit and snapping. The breaks were also very irregular, with no cut face noticeable.

 

[stuving]

maybe you didn't see the comment that the rail has a grey crystalline surface after being broken. "Shearing" is cutting in most people's usage, with blades in contact doing the cutting. A brittle fracture doesn't result from something being cut. I interpreted what I saw and heard as the rail being bent over a short length (i.e. between the 2 outer jaws) beyond its elastic limit and snapping. The breaks were also very irregular, with no cut face noticeable.

Here's one called the Genesis Rail Breaker, with a video:

 

[Annetts key]

Yeah, there are a number of videos on YouTube. This one has some nice close up shots

 

[Steve Harris]

Yeah, there are a number of videos on YouTube. This one has some nice close up shots

Thanx for that. It's a "cropper" which is subtly different to metal shears. (It's more similar to a die and punch tbh).

 

[GuyGibsonVC]

As some have said, the cost to get it would outweigh any income generated. Yes, there are safety and reputation benefits, but these will be put against cost of doing it.

For example, you will need a Road Rail Vehicle (RRV) to take it to the nearest access point, staff to manage the RRV, possession and possible isolation, staff to cut and burn the rail and road haulage to take take it away.

This will run into thousands and thousands of pounds and it isn’t worth it for a few hundred tonne.

Network Rail often have a scrap drive now and again but it is low of the list of priorities.

There may be some easy wins out there but that is it.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

As some have said, the cost to get it would outweigh any income generated. Yes, there are safety and reputation benefits, but these will be put against cost of doing it.

For example, you will need a Road Rail Vehicle (RRV) to take it to the nearest access point, staff to manage the RRV, possession and possible isolation, staff to cut and burn the rail and road haulage to take take it away.

This will run into thousands and thousands of pounds and it isn’t worth it for a few hundred tonne.

Network Rail often have a scrap drive now and again but it is low of the list of priorities.

There may be some easy wins out there but that is it.

Generally I agree but there are plenty of times when RRVs and engineers trains are on hand which could be used to undertake a generally clear up as long as it doesn't impact delivery of the primary works yet it rarely happens especially when its externally contracted works.