Steel rail - Is it not worth recycling?

[pdeaves]

Network Rail has a couple of recycling centres (Westbury, possibly March, I can't remember) where they sort pre-used materials; reusable stuff is sent for reuse in appropriate places (e.g., rail for sidings), scrap is recycled in other ways. It just has to be collected in a sensible manner as discussed above.

 

[Trainbike46]

The Southern was expert at recycling before the term had been invented. Conversions of loco hauled stock into multiple units and power cars into goods brake vans were other specialities! No doubt other uses for redundant rail were found in addition to signal posts.

I'd argue what Southern was doing is actually re-use, a step higher up in the waste pyramid than recycling!

 

[Tester]

I'd argue what Southern was doing is actually re-use, a step higher up in the waste pyramid than recycling!

Absolutely so - a shame it is out of fashion!

 

[AdamWW]

I'd argue what Southern was doing is actually re-use, a step higher up in the waste pyramid than recycling!

Indeed. Sounds more like what's called "upcycling" these days.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Do we actually have a steelworks capable of recycling used rail, two of them are being bailed out by the government with an uncertain and unprofitable future and the third is currently only using imported steel slab.
maybe we should just leave it there as a strategic reserve for when we can no longer import steel

Liberty Steel has an electric arc furnace at Rotherham.
It presumably doesn't produce steel rail as NR's supply comes from Scunthorpe (British Steel).
Port Talbot (TATA) is building 2 EAF's, and Scunthorpe is planned to go that way too, though it currently uses blast furnaces.
Network Rail purchases some specialist steel rail abroad (eg for switches and crossings).

 

[Dr Hoo]

Liberty Steel has been in severe difficulties on several fronts in recent years. I’m not aware that they are doing any significant amount of production at the moment.

 

[zwk500]

Liberty Steel has an electric arc furnace at Rotherham.
It presumably doesn't produce steel rail as NR's supply comes from Scunthorpe (British Steel).
Port Talbot (TATA) is building 2 EAF's, and Scunthorpe is planned to go that way too, though it currently uses blast furnaces.
Network Rail purchases some specialist steel rail abroad (eg for switches and crossings).

NR did trial some EAF produced rail a couple of years ago (see this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/steel-production-for-rail-in-the-uk.257340/#post-6487885) but presumably the contract with British Steel means they aren't currently using it?

 

[Bryson]

Speaking as someone who has re-melted many thousands of tonnes of scrap rails, Yes it is well worth recycling.

It doesn't have to be for new rail production, ferrous metals are endlessly recyclable into all kinds of products and grades.

As others have suggested the logistics of removing the rails form the site, to a location where they can be collected by road transport, it the likely barrier in the short/medium term.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Scrap steel is about £120/tonne, and I think a tonne is a 60ft length. Imagine the cost of collecting the steel would significantly outweigh any cash return.

I don't think that's the case at all. It was a good few years ago now but a criminal gang helped themselves to two miles of rail from the Leamside Line. They wouldn't have gone to that effort if it wasn't profitable.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I don't think that's the case at all. It was a good few years ago now but a criminal gang helped themselves to two miles of rail from the Leamside Line. They wouldn't have gone to that effort if it wasn't profitable.

Not really a valid comparison. It’s not like booking a possession, plant hire, full PPE, lighting, welfare facilities, etc. to modern safety standards on an active route.

 

[sh24]

I don't think that's the case at all. It was a good few years ago now but a criminal gang helped themselves to two miles of rail from the Leamside Line. They wouldn't have gone to that effort if it wasn't profitable.

I had a quote 3 weeks for the removal of 5 tonnes of steel scrap so am pretty confident on the price.

Scrap prices have reduced hugely in the last 10-15 years as Chinese demand has decreased and
lower cost sources of raw materials for virgin steel have come on stream.

 

[CW2]

When the GWR converted from broad gauge to standard, some of the redundant rails were re-used as posts for "No Trespassing" signs.
The father of a school friend did some metallurgical study on these rail samples back in the 1970s. One of the samples now serves as a paperweight at home.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not really a valid comparison. It’s not like booking a possession, plant hire, full PPE, lighting, welfare facilities, etc. to modern safety standards on an active route.

Clearly a criminal gang is going to have a cheaper cost base compared to a legitimate removal, but I think it is a fair point that people wouldn't be stealing metal if it wasn't worthwhile for them to do so.

I suppose it depends what sort of scrap metal we're talking about. If it is a few rails then no, getting the possession is unlikely to be worthwhile. But I didn't have that in mind, more the huge amounts of old trackwork left in sidings, etc, which are well away from any running lines and have just been left to fester. Healey Mills yard in West Yorkshire is an example that immediately comes to mind. I feel the same about the old wagons that EWS have dumped around the country too.

Even with scrap prices dropping, I don't see how this metal would cost more to collect than it would be worth as scrap. I suspect it more comes down to it never getting done as its always down as being someone else's problem.

 

[J s]

Virtually all steel in the UK does actually get recycled rather than sent to landfill if you look at the stats (whether done domestically - or more commonly shipped abroad). Most scrap gets recycled in electric arc furnaces hence the need to export as we don’t have any major EAF plants in the UK- although note the blast furnaces in wales are being converted to EAF. There is a small plant in Sheffield I think which converts scrap to recycled rebar using an electric arc furnace. I don’t know anything specific about rails, but you can easily imagine if engineering works are running late that getting the old rails out would be one of the first things you drop (literally). I imagine then the effort of getting old rails out could take a while to get done as you need to hire plant, pay for an extra shift etc. So probably the answer the question is yes old steel rails are valuable and would get recycled but sometimes logistics gets in the way.

 

[Annetts key]

The rails would be moved to a safe position before the line is handed back. However rails weigh upwards of 56kg/m, they're not going to suddenly jump around. The bigger danger of rails not being collected is to lineside staff with rails stacked in the cess.

Rails left in the four foot do however creep along with the vibration of trains. If they encounter signalling equipment such as cables or TPWS "loops", they can damage these.

buffer stops and fencing were also made from old rails.

When the GWR converted from broad gauge to standard, some of the redundant rails were re-used as posts for "No Trespassing" signs.
The father of a school friend did some metallurgical study on these rail samples back in the 1970s. One of the samples now serves as a paperweight at home.

There is still many fence posts and posts for signs (some disused) across Western made from old broad gauge rail. And some made from old bull head rail.

Also in places, old rail has been used to help hold concrete panels/boards to hold the ballast formation or banks in place.

Back to the OP question.

There are many reasons, many of which have already been mentioned:

• Brand new rail laid out for future use, either for a planned job or for emergency use.
• Brand new rail laid out for a planned job that got cancelled.
• Old rail from a planned job that has not been recovered yet, but is planned to be collected in the future.
• Old rail that was supposed to have been collected, but something happened that prevented it.
• Old rail that has been "forgotten" about.

Rail replacement is not all done the same way. What is in the job specification and hence the contract if the work is being contracted out varies. With some jobs, it is part of the specification that the old materials are removed from site.

However, if difficulties are encountered, yes, collection and removal of the old materials is often not completed. Then the company has no more time to carry out this work...

When Network Rail DU maintenance or CAPEX/Works Delivery are doing the work, they typically do remove the old rails. As the machine that brought the new rail can take back the old rail.

The overall responsibility for dealing with old materials comes down to each Network Rail Delivery Unit (DU). At one time there was a central services section (based at Eastleigh) that ran a train that collected old rail. But this was shut down due to problems.

For rail that is not CWR/LWR, typically a DU will use a 360 RRV (a Road-Rail Vehicle 360-degree excavator fitted with special attachments to pick up rail and fitted with rail wheels) and an attached trailer to take the rail to a pre-arranged collection point. It will then be loaded onto road transport. But due to budget limitations, this work is happening less often.

About the weight. For short lengths, it is possible for a team of people to lift rail. But only if there are enough people and they have the correct tools. I've seen this taking place. They transport the rail either on a P.Way hand trolley or using wheels that are attached to the rail that they are moving.

 

[geordieblue]

Virtually all steel in the UK does actually get recycled rather than sent to landfill if you look at the stats (whether done domestically - or more commonly shipped abroad). Most scrap gets recycled in electric arc furnaces hence the need to export as we don’t have any major EAF plants in the UK- although note the blast furnaces in wales are being converted to EAF. There is a small plant in Sheffield I think which converts scrap to recycled rebar using an electric arc furnace. I don’t know anything specific about rails, but you can easily imagine if engineering works are running late that getting the old rails out would be one of the first things you drop (literally). I imagine then the effort of getting old rails out could take a while to get done as you need to hire plant, pay for an extra shift etc. So probably the answer the question is yes old steel rails are valuable and would get recycled but sometimes logistics gets in the way.

Does 7 Steel in Cardiff not count as a major EAF plant?

 

[sh24]

.

Even with scrap prices dropping, I don't see how this metal would cost more to collect than it would be worth as scrap. I suspect it more comes down to it never getting done as its always down as being someone else's problem.

To put some context, the transport for the 5 tonnes I quoted above came within a whisker of the scrap value. That was rental of a HIAB, labour and fuel. In a high cost environment like the railway I can imagine the recovery cost would be a significant multiple of scrap value.

 

[zwk500]

Does 7 Steel in Cardiff not count as a major EAF plant?

According to UK Steel (the industry association) https://www.uksteel.org/about-us-2 there are 5 sites actually producing steel in the UK:

UK Steel – Google My Maps

Overview of UK steel plants and sites. Copyright UK Steel 2020

www.google.com

Info given on the google map is shown below, assumed to be before the recent shutdowns of blast furnaces at Port Talbot and Scunthorpe.

Port Talbot, 4.5m tonnes/year capacity
Scunthorpe, 3.1m tonnes/year capacity
Cardiff, 1.1m tonnes/year capacity
Sheffield (Liberty), 1.2m tonnes/year capacity
Sheffield (Marcegaglia), 0.2m tonnes/year capacity.

 

[InOban]

Unless you are properly organised (the Leamside gang), full lengths of rail are too heavy for your vandal. Short offcuts are a real danger.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Years ago - we had a nosey on the disused freight line via Dudley (officially) - metal thieves had stolen the track from inside Dudley Tunnel , they obviously had cutting gear to do so , as molten bits were in evidence where they had gas axed the track.

 

[hwl]

According to UK Steel (the industry association) https://www.uksteel.org/about-us-2 there are 5 sites actually producing steel in the UK:

View attachment 194610

UK Steel – Google My Maps

Overview of UK steel plants and sites. Copyright UK Steel 2020

www.google.com

Info given on the google map is shown below, assumed to be before the recent shutdowns of blast furnaces at Port Talbot and Scunthorpe.

Port Talbot, 4.5m tonnes/year capacity
Scunthorpe, 3.1m tonnes/year capacity
Cardiff, 1.1m tonnes/year capacity
Sheffield (Liberty), 1.2m tonnes/year capacity
Sheffield (Marcegaglia), 0.2m tonnes/year capacity.

There are a quite a few more than that e,g Forgemasters in Sheffield has their own EAF which isn't listed as do quite a few other speciality steel works.

 

[oxfordrelayer]

Scrap steel is about £120/tonne, and I think a tonne is a 60ft length. Imagine the cost of collecting the steel would significantly outweigh any cash return.

£186 a tonne but it costs in the region of £6k a shift to collect it - maintenance depots are strapped for cash

 

[NaZzAtAzEr]

Sussex route has two dedicated vehicles for cutting up and removing rail from access points. If renewals go to plan, they will drop rail at access points for the large flatbed/skips to pick up and remove

 

[AndrewE]

It might be worth saying that rail steels AIUI are pretty well the most tightly specified of all steel alloys. As such they should command a premium scrap price.

I remember seeing a tv programme which showed (in the USA) rail lengths being slit to separate head, foot and web and the separate bits being re-rolled for other uses. What particularly stuck in my mind was the comment that the vast majority of US bedframes were made from re-rolled rail steel...

As somebody said upthread, re-use/upcycling is far better and more energy-efficient than recycling.

 

[zwk500]

If renewals go to plan,

And therin lies the rub.

 

[Snow1964]

Scrap steel is about £120/tonne, and I think a tonne is a 60ft length. Imagine the cost of collecting the steel would significantly outweigh any cash return.

In the past long welded rail (LWR) trains would carry 720 feet lengths. But now 600 feet (about 180m) is common and half lengths of around 90m on some lines. From memory upto 24 rails are carried.

So assuming get same length of old rails for scrap as a LWR train brings in, get about £26,000 (£120/tonne x 9 tons x 24 rails) worth of scrap each time replacement rails are brought in.

Can't remember how many LWR trains operate, or how many drops each does a week, but if nationally is say 10 full trains per week, then new rails create about £1m of scrap rails each month. Difficult to argue that isn't worth collecting.

 

[Tetchytyke]

To put some context, the transport for the 5 tonnes I quoted above came within a whisker of the scrap value. That was rental of a HIAB, labour and fuel.

But the cost of collecting 10 tonnes wouldn't be twice the cost of collecting 5 tonnes, and the cost of collecting 20 tonnes wouldn't be twice the cost of collecting 10 tonnes.

However, if difficulties are encountered, yes, collection and removal of the old materials is often not completed. Then the company has no more time to carry out this work...

I suspect time is the main constraint for collecting unused/old metal from running lines, rather than cost. I can very easily see why the old lengths of rail get left next to running lines, given the pressure on possession time these days.

I'm more interested in all the old yards and sidings that have been left to return to nature. And I'm really interested in all the old wagons that EWS in particular have abandoned in various weird and random places.

 

[Annetts key]

I'm more interested in all the old yards and sidings that have been left to return to nature. And I'm really interested in all the old wagons that EWS in particular have abandoned in various weird and random places.

In terms of yards and sidings, in the area where I worked, there is very little in the way of rails or even sleepers that have been left abandoned.

If there is road access, it's relativity easy for the railway to either remove the track itself or employ contractors to do the work. Only in less accessible locations does the old track get left in place.

Although, if the rails are in good condition, the DU may raid the location bit by bit for spare rails for use elsewhere...

And the only wagons are stored rather than abandoned. There being more than the freight company currently has use for at the moment.

 

[Belperpete]

At one time, heritage railways got a lot of their rail second hand from the national network. They could use rails that were no longer fit for mainline use, but were still okay for the low line speeds on preserved railways running under light railway rules. Nowadays most tend to buy new. I think that says a lot about the costs and difficulties of recovering scrap rail from Network Rail.

For sidings that are no longer in use, someone has to declare them to be redundant. And that generally comes with a cost attached, as it generally involves signalling alterations to recover the points giving access to the sidings, as well as all the paperwork alterations associated with the removal of the facility. Even in BR days, that meant that disused sidings lay mouldering away because no one was willing to pay the upfront costs of removing them. Only when the points became due for renewal was anything done.

Likewise defective wagons that have been detached from a train can cost a significant sum to recover, probably far exceeding their scrap value If you have to get fitters to site to make them movable before you can even recover them. If they are not needed, there is no incentive to do so.

 

[zwk500]

At one time, heritage railways got a lot of their rail second hand from the national network. They could use rails that were no longer fit for mainline use, but were still okay for the low line speeds on preserved railways running under light railway rules. Nowadays most tend to buy new. I think that says a lot about the costs and difficulties of recovering scrap rail from Network Rail.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y43ygj19no It still happens. NR also have been increasingly allowing heritage railways to salvage signalling equipment from Mechanical boxes being decommissioned. I think some heritage railways also sometimes get new materials paid for by a maintenance contractor training people for mainline certification.