Steamlined Trains v End Door Fronted Trains.

[Envoy]

I was wondering if there is much difference between driving a streamlined train - such as a Hitachi 800 series v driving at speed a train with a flat front end gangway door? Presumably the small cabs of the gangway fronted trains would not find favour? What about wind resistance - especially with headwinds in storms?

 

[chuff chuff]

Draughts...in 158s case probably others.....remember 47s could be draughty as well.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

A streamlined cab end is always to going to reduce air/wind resistance compared to a flat fronted/gangwayed one. This is why we had the IET, HST and other streamlined locos before then. Flat front-ended gangwayed stock isn't generally built for speed although the Clacton Express Class 309s had some curvature to their cab ends, including the cab windows when introduced

 

[Stossgebet]

Given modern through gangway EMUs are good for 110mph these days, are they that much worse than say a class 86 or 87 for streamlining?

They are however, really really annoying. Like a restricted view at a venue, verses the nice central seats at the front of stage.

 

[zwk500]

Given modern through gangway EMUs are good for 110mph these days, are they that much worse than say a class 86 or 87 for streamlining?

They are however, really really annoying. Like a restricted view at a venue, verses the nice central seats at the front of stage.

I believe the streamlining is as much about the turbulence of the wake behind the train as it is about the wind resistance on the front of the train.

 

[Stossgebet]

I believe the streamlining is as much about the turbulence of the wake behind the train as it is about the wind resistance on the front of the train.

In that case, pre DVT, a through gangway EMU will be pretty much the same as a MK2 or 3 carriage on the rear of the consist.

I do wonder how the pocket sliding doors on the 80x Hitachi trains affect their aerdynamics? And whether they increase potential turbulence when passing through platforms at speed, compared to flush doors.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I was wondering if there is much difference between driving a streamlined train - such as a Hitachi 800 series v driving at speed a train with a flat front end gangway door? Presumably the small cabs of the gangway fronted trains would not find favour? What about wind resistance - especially with headwinds in storms?

I'm not certain this is the case in every example, but at least in some cases the driver's cab isn't restricted to just the area left of the corridor when the cab is in use. When the cab is in the middle of a formation the rear door blocks off the driver's side, and the front door blocks off the secondman's side (or vice-versa). When in use, the full width is available though in many cases this is still slightly more cramped than a full-width cab without a corridor or emergency exit fitted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2025 ==

I do wonder how the pocket sliding doors on the 80x Hitachi trains affect their aerdynamics? And whether they increase potential turbulence when passing through platforms at speed, compared to flush doors.

I recall this being debated during the design stage... Earlier examples of pocket doors were quite draughty, but Hitachi have some sort of pressured sealing system which reduces draughts significantly. There will be some added resistance due to the doors still being slightly indented and not flush with the bodyshell, but with the sealing system this will be minimal.

 

[irish_rail]

For me biggest thing is decent visibility. Some flat fronted corridor stock (15x etc) have shocking visibility compared to an 80x or HST.

 

[simple simon]

As a passenger I very much prefer the ability to walk through the entire train that comes with units that have flat fronts and interconnecting doors.

 

[12LDA28C]

As a passenger I very much prefer the ability to walk through the entire train that comes with units that have flat fronts and interconnecting doors.

You can do that anyway on some trains that don't have flat fronts or interconnecting doors. Classes 345 and 700 for example.

 

[Flange Squeal]

A comparison of cabs between very similar units shows from a driver's point of view the difference having a gangway added to the middle makes in terms of view.

This link shows a Class 360 Desiro cab, which has no gangway so a full-width view for the driver - https://www.flickr.com/photos/nuuttihyttinen/7520057626/

This link shows a Class 450 Desiro cab, which has a gangway so a restricted third-width view for the driver - https://www.flickr.com/photos/40172673@N03/26203006577/

 

[TRAX]

You can do that anyway on some trains that don't have flat fronts or interconnecting doors. Classes 345 and 700 for example.

Simple Simon was obviously talking about walking from one unit to another when running in multiple formation.

 

[43066]

I was wondering if there is much difference between driving a streamlined train - such as a Hitachi 800 series v driving at speed a train with a flat front end gangway door? Presumably the small cabs of the gangway fronted trains would not find favour? What about wind resistance - especially with headwinds in storms?

A long time ago now that I last drove one, but 375s were noisy and fairly draughty. The visibility was also poor with a claustrophobic driving position. 376s (flat ends, no gangway doors) were far better from both points of view.

More generally flat end trains are also far louder at high speed than those with streamlined cabs, as you’d expect.

As a passenger I very much prefer the ability to walk through the entire train that comes with units that have flat fronts and interconnecting doors.

I think the question posed was about driving.

 

[Miles Bown]

but Hitachi have some sort of pressured sealing system which reduces draughts significantly. There will be some added resistance due to the doors still being slightly indented and not flush with the bodyshell, but with the sealing system this will be minimal.

Is this the cause of the locking/unlocking sound the doors on the class 80x make as the train leaves/arrives at a station? That would explain it. I always wondered what that was.

 

[norbitonflyer]

As a passenger I very much prefer the ability to walk through the entire train that comes with units that have flat fronts and interconnecting doors.

Essential on some services with short platforms. Rather difficult to alight from the front four coaches if you are in the rear unit.

 

[12LDA28C]

Simple Simon was obviously talking about walking from one unit to another when running in multiple formation.

Indeed. I was merely making the point that some units are designed to run as single formations and not to run in multiple so walking between units isn't necessary.

 

[simple simon]

Some years ago (I think it was when the 357s were being introduced on the C2C route) there was a TOC official who gave a presentation about the new trains and he said that he preferred multiple unit trains that are not fully walk-through between the units because some passengers might walk through the train to be at the correct portion for the exit at their destination station.

OK, so I understand about trains sometimes being very crowded at some portions (could be the middle, or an end) and having empty seats elsewhere, but I took exception to a railway industry official actively working to thwart a capability because the passengers like and benefit from it. In those days no trains had LCD displays with indicators showing seat occupancy levels of each carriage (a feature that - unless I am mistaken - is still sorely missing from all trains built by Bombardier / Alstom).

Normally I walk along a platform before boarding a train so that I will be at the correct exit location but if the train is already at the station I will board it and then during the journey move forwards / backwards, as required.

There have been times when I have walked through an entire 9 coach Elizabeth line train just so that I can be at the right location for the platform exit at my destination station.

I cannot do this on the Central line (for many reasons, including my own safety, I will not use the emergency door) so at stations I walk from car to car or run along the platform, passing several tube cars on the way. Then during the journey I walk through the inside of the car so as to be ready to repeat the routine at the next station.

btw, when I created a website about transport I included a page on the topic of train end cab designs / walk-through capability. Apart from the copyright year most pages on the website have not been updated for many years but as a general theme the core information is still valid.

citytransport.info - advocating better & environmentally sound public transports

Advocating better & environmentally sound public transports.

citytransport.info

 

[Bletchleyite]

OK, so I understand about trains sometimes being very crowded at some portions (could be the middle, or an end) and having empty seats elsewhere, but I took exception to a railway industry official actively working to thwart a capability because the passengers like and benefit from it. In those days no trains had LCD displays with indicators showing seat occupancy levels of each carriage (a feature that - unless I am mistaken - is still sorely missing from all trains built by Bombardier / Alstom).

Class 730s have that feature.

 

[I_am_Nobody]

Fairly certain the 701s are intended to have it functioning too… eventually.

 

[Train wasp]

I remember travelling on mk1 stock (VEP/CEP) and being able to walk through to the next unit and being able to see the unit speedo showing the units speed.

 

[furnessvale]

This has a very simple answer. If units are intended to work in multiple they should have end doors.

The idea that we build 2 and 3 car units without end connections knowing they are going to spend most of their lives working in multiple is ludicrous.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I remember travelling on mk1 stock (VEP/CEP) and being able to walk through to the next unit and being able to see the unit speedo showing the units speed.

The door on the secondman's side (which was actually the outer door when at the end of the train) was often not bolted properly and afforded a nice secluded extra seat on a busy train!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2025 ==

There have been times when I have walked through an entire 9 coach Elizabeth line train just so that I can be at the right location for the platform exit at my destination station.

A favourite trick of mine was to do that between Blackfrairs and City Thameslink, if the train wasn't busy.

Part of my almost completely under cover walk from Waterloo to my workplace near Holborn Viaduct - via Waterloo East and Southwark stations, and a short walk between Southwark station and the South Bank entrance to Blackfriars. The long dwell times at Blackfriars made it possible. Basically using a Class 700 as a big travolator!

 

[Fincra5]

This has a very simple answer. If units are intended to work in multiple they should have end doors.

The idea that we build 2 and 3 car units without end connections knowing they are going to spend most of their lives working in multiple is ludicrous.

I agree! Which is why the GTR currently have the best commuter setup.
You've either got 3/4/5cars that can run in multiple, 377s, 387s, 379s, split further down the line, etc and still allow passengers to move around. Then you've got your 700s and 717s with Walk-Through Carriage which run at their max length. (Yes 2x 717s could run together...)

 

[Flange Squeal]

I remember travelling on mk1 stock (VEP/CEP) and being able to walk through to the next unit and being able to see the unit speedo showing the units speed.

You’re still able to do this on their Desiro replacements on the South Western division (and the similar 350s on the West Coast Mainline), thanks to windows in the doors that make up the gangway sides when in multiple.

 

[Envoy]

I wonder what difference it makes having a streamlined train v one with an end door front when going through tunnels - especially those with a single bore? I sometimes feel the air pressure increase on my ear drums.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I wonder what difference it makes having a streamlined train v one with an end door front when going through tunnels - especially those with a single bore? I sometimes feel the air pressure increase on my ear drums.

Depends how much space there is around the train in the tunnel. Tube trains are not streamlined because the air has nowhere to go except to be pushed in front of the train (the piston effect).

 

[Spartacus]

Up to about 100mph the streamlining doesn't make a huge amount of difference for something the size and shape of a train, wind resistance when side on or angled to the wind is a bigger player.

Something I don't think's been mentioned yet is that a flat fronted cab's usually a lot easier to couple than a streamlined one, more difficult the more it's streamlined as you can see what you're coming to for longer and are closer to it. That's one reason for the use of cameras on some units now. Of course in a non-intentional coming together, shall we say, coupling might be preferred due to more protection.

 

[kaysha]

If I remember correctly Scotrails 385s started life with "streamlined" curved windscreens. However in testing these distorted the view of the signals hence the need to replace them with flat screens which wasn't a quick job. (I think this delay was a big contributory factor for the need to bring in the 365s)

 

[Speed1283]

Suspect that crash/collision requirements may have something to do with it too once above 110mph operations the requirements are more stringent and may be difficult to package into a flat front end

 

[Train wasp]

Just wonder how much faster than 100 mph do you need to go in this country apart from the HS1/HS2 and the East and West coast main line and possible the main line to the West Country.