Steam Train Causes Fires on the ECML (7/5)

[ushawk]

All trains in the Darlington area are at a stand as a steam train has yet again caused fires on the lineside.

Happening too much now !!

 

[Mr395008]

How did they manage before?!

 

[IanD]

Tomorrow? At least they've given advance notice so they can have the fire bizzies on standby

 

[Mugby]

How did they manage before?!

There wasn't anything like as much vegetation in steam days as there is now.

I travelled up the ECML yesterday and I noticed that quite a lot of tree felling had been done
But you need to be really ruthless with it because if you don't control nature, nature will take over!

 

[High Dyke]

There wasn't anything like as much vegetation in steam days as there is now.

I travelled up the ECML yesterday and I noticed that quite a lot of tree felling had been done
But you need to be really ruthless with it because if you don't control nature, nature will take over!

This is what happens when the local gangs are not so local anymore. Each gang used to look after its own area, inc. lineside vegetation.

 

[David Goddard]

Must be this:
http://www.uksteam.info/tours/t13/t0506q.htm

Got to York early according to RealTimetrains:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U53141/2013/05/06/advanced

 

[amcluesent]

ECML should pass on the 'Delay Repay' costs to the kettle's operators!

 

[cjmillsnun]

Why? It's not their fault that Network Rail can't or won't deal with lineside vegetation. The loco is mainline certified working normally without a fault.

 

[yorksrob]

Not particularly a fan of kettles, but I do wonder what is being done about lineside foliage. Today‘s lineside fire is often tomorrow‘s leaf mulch problem.

 

[Welshman]

How did they manage before?!

As Mugby and High Dyke have said, there was a more ruthless regime of regularly cutting-back and keeping vegetation in control in the days when there was a cheaper and more readily-available workforce.

Also, since the 1970s, many sidings, loop-lines and freight yards adjacent to the main line have become disused. In some cases, the rails have been lifted and the land re-used, but in others, they have been abandoned and sycamore saplings have been allowed to rapidly take-over, thus allowing more-recent vegetation near the main line.

An example of this can be seen on the Calder Valley line between Mytholmroyd and Luddendenfoot. The freight loops and yard at Mytholmroyd are now no more, so where, in my youth, the line afforded clear views across the valley, it is now akin to travelling through a cutting, for all you can see is a line of trees either side of the track.

I guess there must be many other places on the network like this.

 

[Bald Rick]

Perhaps there were just as many (if not more) lineside fires in the old days, but it didn't matter.

 

[yorkie]

ECML should pass on the 'Delay Repay' costs to the kettle's operators!

East Coast will get more money in compensation than they hand out to passengers in the form of 'Delay Repay'.

 

[LE Greys]

Perhaps there were just as many (if not more) lineside fires in the old days, but it didn't matter.

The Bulleid Pacifics were reputed to be the worst for spark-throwing, and Southern/BR used to have to pay out a lot in compensation to farmers working the land alongside. Probably something to do with the Lemaître exhausts. Most locos have either spark-arrestor plates in the smokebox or self-cleaning plates that cover the spark-catching function. And, as stated before, embankments used to be cut back a lot more rigorously when steam was in regular service.

 

[Darren R]

And, as stated before, embankments used to be cut back a lot more rigorously when steam was in regular service.

But back then residents along the line didn't kick up a fuss to the local council/MP/newspapers every time tree-felling took place!:roll:

 

[edwin_m]

Frequent steam services would probably have started small fires quite often, most of which would have been put out by the local gang or simply burned themselves out without causing much disruption. This would also have reduced the amount of flammable material available, in addition to the efforts of the railway workforce.

Now that steam trains are rare, there is more change for a large amount of flammable material to build up so that a fire when it happens is likely to be bigger.

 

[chris89]

Why? It's not their fault that Network Rail can't or won't deal with lineside vegetation. The loco is mainline certified working normally without a fault.

Exactly.

Small lineside fires happen all the time on the SVR during the Summer months and the vegetation is kept very tidy all the time, so it is just the weeds and bracken they get burnt up.

Chris

 

[jopsuk]

it is hardly ridiculous that the network is not cleared of vegetation to the same levels. For day to day diesel and electric operation it simply isn't needed. To suggest that Network Rail spends large amounts of money on the resources to clear the banks just so a small number of kettles can run is ridiculous.

 

[michael769]

Perhaps there were just as many (if not more) lineside fires in the old days, but it didn't matter.

It is well known in forestry that that forest fires actually prevent further forest fires by consuming the available fuel.

Most likely when steam was in regular use they would have had frequent small minor fires that destroyed fuel and acted to prevent the more serious fires that now occur. In actuality was was probably impossible for vegetation to build up to any great extent in what would be a quite hostile environment.

 

[MK Tom]

If it comes down to unacceptable costs in maintenance for a few steam runs, or banning steam runs on certain lines, could a compromise be found in making some kind of minor, removable modification to the locos to reduce how much they throw sparks?

 

[455driver]

To suggest that Network Rail spends large amounts of money on the resources to clear the banks just so a small number of kettles can run is ridiculous.

How dare you use such a defamatory term.

Show some respect, its "tea making device" to you young man!

I wonder if the bearded ones on kettle corpse.com (oh bugger now you have got me saying it ) would have a different viewpoint?

 

[LE Greys]

If it comes down to unacceptable costs in maintenance for a few steam runs, or banning steam runs on certain lines, could a compromise be found in making some kind of minor, removable modification to the locos to reduce how much they throw sparks?

Additional spark arrestors have been fitted to some locos in the past, but it does tend to change their appearance (link). 34064 Fighter Command ran with a Gisel ejector for several years as well, partly to alleviate spark-throwing (it improved draughting as well). Most of these devices involve breaking up the red-hot cinders that create these sparks, so the screens tend to reduce the draught somewhat.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Exactly.

Small lineside fires happen all the time on the SVR during the Summer months and the vegetation is kept very tidy all the time, so it is just the weeds and bracken they get burnt up.

Chris

And then there's always the larger ones like Monday.....

 

[John Webb]

It is amazing how quickly nature moves in - in 1969 when I started working near Elstree and Borehamwood station, the cutting south of the station was almost free of bushes and there were no trees except at the top of the cutting. By the 'Great Drought' of 1976 small trees, bushes and the very long uncut grass lead to several incidents where our works fire brigade was turned out to extinguish fires on the railway embankment, caused by children having little camp fires. (In one incident we even found the rather over-cooked spuds still in the fire!)

 

[chorleyjeff]

How did they manage before?!

Frequent small fires!
At least around Factory Lane/Skew Bridge embankment and cutting South of Preston.
Actually us naughty lads used to get coal from the tracks and use it to make little fires to cook sausages etc!
Jeff

 

[callum112233]

As Mugby and High Dyke have said, there was a more ruthless regime of regularly cutting-back and keeping vegetation in control in the days when there was a cheaper and more readily-available workforce.

I'd do it for £6.19 an hour. Do you think if I sent a covering letter to Network Rail they would let me crack on ASAP?

 

[E&W Lucas]

Additional spark arrestors have been fitted to some locos in the past, but it does tend to change their appearance (link). 34064 Fighter Command ran with a Gisel ejector for several years as well, partly to alleviate spark-throwing (it improved draughting as well). Most of these devices involve breaking up the red-hot cinders that create these sparks, so the screens tend to reduce the draught somewhat.

A spark arrestor is just a mesh screen around the top of the blast pipe. Standard in preservation now, pretty much. Heritage lines need to co - exist with their neighbours!

Mainline locos are now fitted with mesh screens across ashpan dampers, to prevent cinders dropping out from under the fire. Happening on some preserved line only locos too.

If I've one question here, it is why a positioning move was made at a busy time of day, on a major route. Could have been done at night, when there is (relatively speaking) nowt about to disrupt.

 

[Kingston Flyer]

If I've one question here, it is why a positioning move was made at a busy time of day, on a major route. Could have been done at night, when there is (relatively speaking) nowt about to disrupt.

If you look at the timings it is a relatively long run (in excess of 12 hours), and 60009 was continuing to Bristol the next day (admittedly later in the day and through the night)

There is the possibility that other things need to be done to mainline locos in between these runs (re-applied FTR or so). I'm not that entirely sure of the long list of necessary paperwork that is gained, and how often it needs to be gained for mainline running.

 

[chorleyjeff]

The Bulleid Pacifics were reputed to be the worst for spark-throwing, and Southern/BR used to have to pay out a lot in compensation to farmers working the land alongside. Probably something to do with the Lemaître exhausts. Most locos have either spark-arrestor plates in the smokebox or self-cleaning plates that cover the spark-catching function. And, as stated before, embankments used to be cut back a lot more rigorously when steam was in regular service.

And they ran through the dry South of England where lots of arable crops were grown so very combustible straw was all around in summer.

 

[MCW]

ECML should pass on the 'Delay Repay' costs to the kettle's operators!

take it you are not a fan of steamers then?

I would love to know the reasoning behind your comment, as others have said, it isn't the railtour operator's fault the lineside fire happens, again, it is the lack of time, care and money put into taking care of lineside infrastructure and vegetation. If you look at old photos of some famous locations you will see a lack of trees and hedges, if you compare those old photos to now, there are trees everywhere. This only comes about due to a lack of either Money and time or just care for such matters.

also if you don't mind me asking, are you a regular commuter by train? only asking because this will help me to understand your perspective better.

 

[jon0844]

Who pays for the lineside clear up operation for these irregular services? Is it money well spent?