Steam operations on Borders Rail

[route:oxford]

Alex Salmond has announced that there will be 3 steam services per week on re-opened Borders route.

What is the most likely stock to operate the services what is most likely to be the livery?

 

[ExRes]

When did Alex Salmond start running a steam railway ?, although maybe steam trains will be the only available railway stock should President Salmond get his way in the ballot box

 

[AM9]

Alex Salmond has announced that there will be 3 steam services per week on re-opened Borders route.

What is the most likely stock to operate the services what is most likely to be the livery?

Rail enthusiasts notwithstanding, this sounds like another Salmond tactic designed to appeal to Scots' hearts rather than their brains.

 

[thealexweb]

I can imagine there will be three booked slots per week that could be taken by preservation groups but after the initial buzz will there be that demand years down the line?

 

[JohnB57]

Alex Salmond has announced that there will be 3 steam services per week on re-opened Borders route.

So what started as an hourly diesel service each day is now just three services per week using an old train? Post independence, this could well be a reality.

 

[route:oxford]

I can imagine there will be three booked slots per week that could be taken by preservation groups but after the initial buzz will there be that demand years down the line?

Are there enough mainline certified steam locos left to run these, probably peak season, services?

There is the Jacobite, the service to Whitby and now the service to the Borders.

 

[martinsh]

Alex Salmond has announced that there will be 3 steam services per week on re-opened Borders route.

Will they be oil fired ?!

 

[jnty]

So what started as an hourly diesel service each day is now just three services per week using an old train? Post independence, this could well be a reality.

This type of anti-Scottish abuse - suggesting that it's some sort of economic basketcase - is offensive to Scots on both sides of the debate and totally unnecessary. This must be one of the most momentous railway openings post-Beeching and yet another example of the refreshingly positive Scottish attitude to rail investment, yet all some people seem to want to do is use it as a vehicle for outdated, inaccurate and patronising insults. If this is what we have to look forward to if we stay in the UK I'm not surprised the Yes vote is so popular.

 

[scotsman]

It's very little to do with Salmond. Transport Scotland (admittedly under the direction of the SNP) has been wanting to develop Scotland's rail network as a tourist attraction for quite some time now. The scenic nature of the borders line, and the proximety to Edinburgh makes it prime for tourist trains.

Salmond's just had this shoved this way by an advisor to announce because it sounds good.

 

[47802]

This type of anti-Scottish abuse - suggesting that it's some sort of economic basketcase - is offensive to Scots on both sides of the debate and totally unnecessary. This must be one of the most momentous railway openings post-Beeching and yet another example of the refreshingly positive Scottish attitude to rail investment, yet all some people seem to want to do is use it as a vehicle for outdated, inaccurate and patronising insults. If this is what we have to look forward to if we stay in the UK I'm not surprised the Yes vote is so popular.

I think it was aimed more at Salmond, which regardless or whether you are in favour of Independence or not, most people south of the Border, and some Scots I know north of the Border think he's a complete ******, and publicising the idea that one of the benefits the SNP is bringing to Scotland is 3 steam trains a week to the Borders, sounds like scrapping the bottom of the Barrel really and ripe for a **** take.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Returning to the topic, can anyone give a source for there being plans for three steam services a week rather than just one on a Saturday afternoon?
There's a discussion on this going on in the Borders Railway - any news? thread but the source quoted there (Scotsman article) seems to imply only the one planned steam service.

 

[JohnB57]

This type of anti-Scottish abuse - suggesting that it's some sort of economic basketcase - is offensive to Scots on both sides of the debate and totally unnecessary. This must be one of the most momentous railway openings post-Beeching and yet another example of the refreshingly positive Scottish attitude to rail investment, yet all some people seem to want to do is use it as a vehicle for outdated, inaccurate and patronising insults. If this is what we have to look forward to if we stay in the UK I'm not surprised the Yes vote is so popular.

Of course, it's completely unheard of for Scots to aim any abuse at all at the English. But if you seriously think my comment was anti-Scottish abuse, you should get out more - you're just being silly.

I suggest you get off your high moral horse and use the energy to instead try and detect humour and irony. It'd be a lot more productive and who knows? You might even muster a smile...

 

[Altnabreac]

Of course, it's completely unheard of for Scots to aim any abuse at all at the English. But if you seriously think my comment was anti-Scottish abuse, you should get out more - you're just being silly.

I suggest you get off your high moral horse and use the energy to instead try and detect humour and irony. It'd be a lot more productive and who knows? You might even muster a smile...

As an Englishman living in Scotland I'd be inclined to agree with Jnty. While your joke was obviously that rather than abuse as such it was fairly weak to be honest and borderline acceptable.

Almost any thread on here about matters Scottish fairly quickly attracts comments similar to yours and it ceases to be amusing fairly quickly.

Whatever you think of Salmond / SNP / Independence you'd have to agree Scotland has been fairly proactive in developing rail in the last 20 years under governments of all types. If you want to discuss politics there are threads in the general forum for that.

This thread is about a positive proposal to try an develop tourism infrastructure in an area that has suffered structural decline in recent years.

I for one hope it goes ahead and proves successful.

 

[NotATrainspott]

What does 60163 Tornado do most of the time? If there are any gaps in its charter and maintenance schedule I imagine it may end up there reasonably often. It must be a shoe-in for the opening ceremony celebrations in any case.

 

[route:oxford]

This type of anti-Scottish abuse - suggesting that it's some sort of economic basket case - is offensive to Scots on both sides of the debate and totally unnecessary. This must be one of the most momentous railway openings post-Beeching and yet another example of the refreshingly positive Scottish attitude to rail investment, yet all some people seem to want to do is use it as a vehicle for outdated, inaccurate and patronising insults. If this is what we have to look forward to if we stay in the UK I'm not surprised the Yes vote is so popular.

Well, definitely in the top 5. After the Channel Tunnel, HS1, Cross-rail and the Jubilee line.

 

[jnty]

Well, definitely in the top 5. After the Channel Tunnel, HS1, Cross-rail and the Jubilee line.

Sorry - that was meant to say re-opening. Although it definitely is a matter of perspective - I'm sure there's plenty of people who don't frequent London and the South East who'd disagree with that.

 

[fegguk]

I Assume its possible to run a steam train by cancelling or not scheduling 1 off peak train each way each day. Which is probably not going to make much difference to most off peak passengers.

If this were the case Scotrail would need to send 2 DMU's in multiple to Tweedbank to for the service that left Edinburgh before the stream train. One of these would make its normal return journey the other would need to wait at Tweedbank (with a crew) to form the return leg of the train cancelled to make way for the steam train. For the return leg the DMU arriving at Tweedbank before the steam train departed would need to wait at Tweedbank and join the following or later service in mutiple. Alternatively you need to cancel 2 trains each way,the one the steam train replaces and its return.

As far as running round at tweed bank is concerned there is no loop and 2 platforms so as far as I can see there are 3 options.

1 have a diesel at the end and drag the train back to Edinburgh
2 have a diesel at the end and use it to shunt the coaches into the other platform at Tweedbank thus releasing the steam loco for it to attach it self back to the other end
3 have a steam loco at both ends, not sure how this effects the 45mph speed limit for tender first operation, the loco on the end would be working as a banker.

Bear in mind that the journey needs to be done in 50-55 minutes to avoid mucking up other train timings,
the distance is 35 miles, with probably no stops, the DMU have to stop 7-8 times.

Discuss

 

[edwin_m]

I Assume its possible to run a steam train by cancelling or not scheduling 1 off peak train each way each day. Which is probably not going to make much difference to most off peak passengers.

If this were the case Scotrail would need to send 2 DMU's in multiple to Tweedbank to for the service that left Edinburgh before the stream train. One of these would make its normal return journey the other would need to wait at Tweedbank (with a crew) to form the return leg of the train cancelled to make way for the steam train. For the return leg the DMU arriving at Tweedbank before the steam train departed would need to wait at Tweedbank and join the following or later service in mutiple.

For this to work the DMU for the later working would have to be available in Edinburgh in time to couple to the earlier one, and the one that waits at Tweedbank would need to get back to Edinburgh before its next working. This is probably only going to be true if extra units are provided, which would increase Scotrail's total fleet unless spare units and crews were available off-peak and the excursion covered the extra costs of using them.

There was a piece in Modern Railways a couple of months ago suggesting that what was needed was several double track sections and extra signals, so presumably an excursion could closely precede or follow a service train and trains the other way could pass both on the same double track. However the signals were never in the spec and the double track sections were apparently shortened and several new bridges built for single track so the original configuration is now practically impossible.

Could this just be a plan to reduce the off-peak service, spun as a way to provide excursion paths?

 

[fegguk]

For this to work the DMU for the later working would have to be available in Edinburgh in time to couple to the earlier one, and the one that waits at Tweedbank would need to get back to Edinburgh before its next working. This is probably only going to be true if extra units are provided, which would increase Scotrail's total fleet unless spare units and crews were available off-peak and the excursion covered the extra costs of using them.

There was a piece in Modern Railways a couple of months ago suggesting that what was needed was several double track sections and extra signals, so presumably an excursion could closely precede or follow a service train and trains the other way could pass both on the same double track. However the signals were never in the spec and the double track sections were apparently shortened and several new bridges built for single track so the original configuration is now practically impossible.

Could this just be a plan to reduce the off-peak service, spun as a way to provide excursion paths?

Thanks for pointing this out I had realized this but didn't want to over complicate the post. This is where the franchising bidding process comes in. ie will bidders be prepared to bear the cost of this sort of thing as a part of their bid or can they come up with other creative solutions.

I have to say that the reduced of peak service spin also crossed my mind, beware of Greeks bearing gifts even tapestries that may contain threads that only appear to be gold.

 

[shedman]

Unable to post link on my mobile! Sorry