Steam in Commuter Service. Can it be Done?

[wheelnrail]

I'm told at one point years ago a steam train was used to stand in for one of the services to London as an express service. Obviously this was because of a special event. However would a TOC ever allow steam to be substituted in from one of their trains especially in this day and age? What factors are considered if steam was used in commuter service? Is it economically feasible? I know if I was a commuter I sure would be surprised to know my ride to work is the 07: xx service to Paddington or wherever would be pulled by a Castle made up of 12 coaches.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

It's doubtful, coal and insurance must cost a lot, plus there can't be too many places nowadays where you can turn a steam loco (or anything) around. Also what would happen if NR were to issue a steam ban on a given route?

 

[TheEdge]

Like has been said in a lot of cases the infrastructure isn't there, rarely to turn a loco and even just getting a loco run round can be hard.

Also no way a steam hauled service would be able to just fall in to a normal booked train, it wouldn't manage to keep to time. Dwell times would also be significantly longer as stock would be slam doors.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm told at one point years ago a steam train was used to stand in for one of the services to London as an express service. Obviously this was because of a special event. However would a TOC ever allow steam to be substituted in from one of their trains especially in this day and age? What factors are considered if steam was used in commuter service? Is it economically feasible? I know if I was a commuter I sure would be surprised to know my ride to work is the 07: xx service to Paddington or wherever would be pulled by a Castle made up of 12 coaches.

No chance! A bus would be cheaper

 

[21C101]

The answer is obviously yes in theory as TfL have done it on the Met line a couple of times recently.As a reuslt, I am now one of the only people alive to have a genuine First Class Underground ticket, cost me £80!

I can remember during the steam on the Southwestern organised in the 1980s that there was a very late running service train from Exeter so he arranged that the Yeovil - Salisbury bulleid pacific hauled special would make extra calls at Templecombe, Gillingham and Tisbury, cue astonished faces where it arrived. It didn't stop at Sherborne as that was still under Western Region occupation at the time and they wouldn't let it, so pax there had to wait for another hour or so.

I remember the (southern) area manager wandering round Yeovil Junction with a megaphone advising pax that they could go on the steam train for an extra fiver or something. Good thing it wasn't Exeter St Davids or they might have called the police.....

 

[NSEFAN]

A little while back, a steam charter from London Victoria towards Kent gave a load of commuters a ride home. It had been snowing heavily and 3rd rail traction was struggling, but steam kept going reasonably well.

 

[Dawg]

In theory yes, in practice no.

Commuter times on stopping services - certainly in the North West have not radically changed since the 1950's/'60's - it's just the motive power had become easier and cheaper to operate. So they could easily run a commuter service. The Stanier and Fairburn 2-6-4t locos were quick off the mark and could turn a respectable speed.


However - Where would the coal staging be? A bunker can't hold a huge supply of coal; and what about water filling points. There's no need for turning on a 2-6-4T as they ran backwards just as much as they ran forwards - however, most stations & termini no longer have a run around loop.

 

[Welshman]

I seem to remember in the 1950's, the "Jazz services" - the Great Eastern suburban services out of Liverpool St, were run very efficiently with steam power, with fast turn-rounds achieved by the incoming engine moving to the head of an outgoing service on an adjacent platform as soon as its stock had been released. But then, as has been said, there was the infrastructure to allow such slick operation.

And, I suppose now a return to the "push-pull" or auto train design would solve the problem of lack of turn-round facilities at termini.

And there were tales in the 1960s of steam engines being substituted at the last minute for failed diesel locos [often much to the crew's chagrin, as they were looking-forward to a clean, comfortable ride], and achieving creditable timings, nevertheless.

But what would be the point now? Since the run-down of the collieries, there would not be an easily-mined supply of good quality steam coal now available, to say nothing of the distribution of that coal and watering-facilities, water troughs and columns, etc. When steam specials run now, the often have to be scheduled stops of up to 25 minutes in a loop and at a convenient point where a bowser can be adjacent.

I suppose it could be a good use for all those locos being kept in warm storage in Box tunnel, though.

 

[w0033944]

I seem to remember in the 1950's, the "Jazz services" - the Great Eastern suburban services out of Liverpool St, were run very efficiently with steam power, with fast turn-rounds achieved by the incoming engine moving to the head of an outgoing service on an adjacent platform as soon as its stock had been released. But then, as has been said, there was the infrastructure to allow such slick operation.

And, I suppose now a return to the "push-pull" or auto train design would solve the problem of lack of turn-round facilities at termini.

And there were tales in the 1960s of steam engines being substituted at the last minute for failed diesel locos [often much to the crew's chagrin, as they were looking-forward to a clean, comfortable ride], and achieving creditable timings, nevertheless.

But what would be the point now? Since the run-down of the collieries, there would not be an easily-mined supply of good quality steam coal now available, to say nothing of the distribution of that coal and watering-facilities, water troughs and columns, etc. When steam specials run now, the often have to be scheduled stops of up to 25 minutes in a loop and at a convenient point where a bowser can be adjacent.

I suppose it could be a good use for all those locos being kept in warm storage in Box tunnel, though.

BTW, the Jazz services were introduced by the then Great Eastern Railway in 1921, the name referencing the brightly-coloured cantrail stripes used to identify trains and portions thereof (the Quint-Art 5-carriage articulated sets were often doubled-up, so could be divided if necessary), the idea being that, on a busy platform, commuters could head to the stock showing the colour for the service they required.

In all other respects, I agree with your posts. Britain as a country, and the network itself have changed so dramatically since the withdrawal of steam that it would, sadly, be impractical to reintroduce even in the very limited sense of the OP.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

I can remember during the steam on the Southwestern organised in the 1980s that there was a very late running service train from Exeter so he arranged that the Yeovil - Salisbury bulleid pacific hauled special would make extra calls at Templecombe, Gillingham and Tisbury, cue astonished faces where it arrived. It didn't stop at Sherborne as that was still under Western Region occupation at the time and they wouldn't let it, so pax there had to wait for another hour or so.

ISTR that recently a steam train actually run an ordinary Northern scheduled service near Whitby quite recently - I'm sure it's on here. (I think it was there for a railtour so it happened to be in the right place at the right time). I think there have been odd other instances of things like this happening, but only once in a blue moon.

 

[alexl92]

ISTR that recently a steam train actually run an ordinary Northern scheduled service near Whitby quite recently - I'm sure it's on here. (I think it was there for a railtour so it happened to be in the right place at the right time). I think there have been odd other instances of things like this happening, but only once in a blue moon.

Yeah - can't remember the exact circumstances but I think it may have been the WCRC K1 - picked up commuters during a test run due to a cancelled train.

 

[Howardh]

The East Lancs line....I suppose, theoretically, the steam trains could carry on past Heywood on to the main line and then to Victoria. In practice doing that wouldn't interest many commuters as by going the long way round, no time is saved over the Metro.

However, if engines could be turned, when the Ordsall Curve is finished those trains could go on to Piccadilly which may interest commuters! But the chances of that happening by steam are .00001%

But the East Lancs does run diesels...

As a more serious suggestion, how's about putting steam locos on the Parliamentary line Stockport- Guide Bridge? One or two a day, more at weekends, run by either a rail company or heritage company (or jointly)? Could it make money??

 

[theageofthetra]

Steam could easily run the Bromley North shuttle (gauging issues aside). On a Sunday when its normally closed, I am surprised the GWR steam railmotor lot haven't looked at it. The normal weekday service is only two car and not particularly strenuous-if water and coal can be delivered I don't see why it couldn't work?

 

[Crawley Ben]

A little while back, a steam charter from London Victoria towards Kent gave a load of commuters a ride home. It had been snowing heavily and 3rd rail traction was struggling, but steam kept going reasonably well.

I bet NR & the TOC (Southeastern?) company were left blushing after that event took place I *think* it was a Steam Dreams charter hauled by Tornado, however I could well be mistaken of course.

Ben

 

[Tibbs]

No-one seems to be considering one very important point, pollution.

There is no way anyone actually living near these lines would accept the pollution and the especially the particulates anywhere near them. Given the damage breathing in these pollutants has be shown to cause, good luck getting sign off for a regular commercial service in a major built up area. This certainly wouldn't pass any kind of environmental assessment, given that diesel engines are struggling to meet the new regulations.

You just have to look at old photos and film to see how dirty stations and their surrounding buildings were as a result of the smoke from the engines.

Someone put the chance of using steam at .00001%, I think he's being .00001% too optimistic.

Steam as anything other than a heritage exercise or for tourism is over.

 

[yorkie]

Is it economically feasible?

It's not economically feasible to charter a steam train for the purpose of transporting commuters.

It may be economically feasible, in very rare cases, for a Train Company to ask for a charter train that happens to be running, to carry their passengers.

For example, see this thread Interesting Service Grosmont - Middlesbrough : Steam loco works service train from January this year. Although it's unclear whether or not any of the passengers were "commuters" (the link to Realtimetrains no longer works, and the service detail wasn't quoted)

In post #10 of the same thread, there is a reference to an event 5 years ago where a charter train from Victoria allowed Southeastern commuters to board to get home.

In some exceptionally rare cases, a charter might run if it runs in place of a passenger service (due to a lack of paths). Due to various reasons this is incredibly rare, but I believe it has happened on, for example, the Blaenau Ffestiniog line, but I don't know what type of loco that was hauled by and can't find the details to hand.

I know if I was a commuter I sure would be surprised to know my ride to work is the 07: xx service to Paddington or wherever would be pulled by a Castle made up of 12 coaches.

There is no chance of that happening. There would not be any paths for a charter train into Paddington at that time in the morning, and if FGW were to put on a replacement train it would be a turbo, HST or possibly a diesel loco hauling the Sleeper stock (which is rare but has happened).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is no way anyone actually living near these lines would accept the pollution and the especially the particulates anywhere near them. Given the damage breathing in these pollutants has be shown to cause, good luck getting sign off for a regular commercial service in a major built up area.

Are there protests in towns like Whitby?

Steam as anything other than a heritage exercise or for tourism is over.

Totally agree - in fact it's stating the obvious really!

 

[matacaster]

The East Lancs line....I suppose, theoretically, the steam trains could carry on past Heywood on to the main line and then to Victoria. In practice doing that wouldn't interest many commuters as by going the long way round, no time is saved over the Metro.

However, if engines could be turned, when the Ordsall Curve is finished those trains could go on to Piccadilly which may interest commuters! But the chances of that happening by steam are .00001%

But the East Lancs does run diesels...

As a more serious suggestion, how's about putting steam locos on the Parliamentary line Stockport- Guide Bridge? One or two a day, more at weekends, run by either a rail company or heritage company (or jointly)? Could it make money??

Couple of useful triangles at Leeds and Shipley.

 

[Aictos]

A little while back, a steam charter from London Victoria towards Kent gave a load of commuters a ride home. It had been snowing heavily and 3rd rail traction was struggling, but steam kept going reasonably well.

Also done on the Hertford Loop during disruption, said train called at stations along way to Kings Cross in place of 313 operated service - this happened about 2 years ago.

 

[DelayRepay]

In post #10 of the same thread, there is a reference to an event 5 years ago where a charter train from Victoria allowed Southeastern commuters to board to get home.

Here is the link to the news report: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8428097.stm

I seem to recall another example from somewhere up north (not the Middlesbrough example already quoted) where a steam charter set stood in for a failed train. I'm sure it must have happened a few times.

Could a steam train in theory act as a thunderbird to rescue a failed train? I guess not.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

IN , or around , 1986 - when the steam runs were on from Salisbury to Yoevil Jct - the steam special covered the calls to Salisbury due to a class 50 failure around Exmouth Jct - (where a replacement train to Waterloo was hastily arranged to take the normal pax forward) - shall we say - the timings were kept due to excellent footplate work from the Salisbury based crews. Steam - commuter trains - no chance !!!

 

[Oxfordblues]

Yeah - can't remember the exact circumstances but I think it may have been the WCRC K1 - picked up commuters during a test run due to a cancelled train.

Yes indeed, but a B1 rather than K1:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/boulbymine/11859351695/

 

[physics34]

very unrelated and has properly happened a few times, but when i was on the EPB farewell railtour we were basically in passenger service!

 

[MichaelWells]

Could a steam train in theory act as a thunderbird to rescue a failed train? I guess not.

It did a while back when 4MT 2-6-0 76079 was working over on the Cambrian at Machynlleth, it rescued I think 37670 and moved it back into the shed whereas a DMU does not have the correct couplings for the job.

 

[wheelnrail]

Originally Posted by yorkie
It's not economically feasible to charter a steam train for the purpose of transporting commuters.

It may be economically feasible, in very rare cases, for a Train Company to ask for a charter train that happens to be running, to carry their passengers.

For example, see this thread Interesting Service Grosmont - Middlesbrough : Steam loco works service train from January this year. Although it's unclear whether or not any of the passengers were "commuters" (the link to Realtimetrains no longer works, and the service detail wasn't quoted)

In post #10 of the same thread, there is a reference to an event 5 years ago where a charter train from Victoria allowed Southeastern commuters to board to get home.

In some exceptionally rare cases, a charter might run if it runs in place of a passenger service (due to a lack of paths). Due to various reasons this is incredibly rare, but I believe it has happened on, for example, the Blaenau Ffestiniog line, but I don't know what type of loco that was hauled by and can't find the details to hand.

Perhaps I should've worded it better in my first post, but this was what I was looking for. Thank you.

 

[AmeralGunson]

I'm told at one point years ago a steam train was used to stand in for one of the services to London as an express service. Obviously this was because of a special event. However would a TOC ever allow steam to be substituted in from one of their trains especially in this day and age? What factors are considered if steam was used in commuter service? Is it economically feasible? I know if I was a commuter I sure would be surprised to know my ride to work is the 07: xx service to Paddington or wherever would be pulled by a Castle made up of 12 coaches.

Perhaps you're thinking of some sort of centenary or such like a few years ago when a commuter train in the morning ran from Woking to Waterloo pulled by a steam engine. My friend Margery was a passenger on it as she lives in Woking and worked in an office block just outside Waterloo. She said that only regular season ticket holders were allowed on it.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Perhaps you're thinking of some sort of centenary or such like a few years ago when a commuter train in the morning ran from Woking to Waterloo pulled by a steam engine. My friend Margery was a passenger on it as she lives in Woking and worked in an office block just outside Waterloo. She said that only regular season ticket holders were allowed on it.

That sounds like it was the use of Clan Line in the Woking 150 event?

There was another run in connection with that which was an evening additional up run from Woking - it did require a pre-booked ticket but it was an absolute bargain price and you had the pleasure of having the train arrive from the west, detraining a load of passengers ( at the end of a charter ) then boarding it yourself for the stint to Waterloo - as near as possible to a true plandampf as you could get.

From memory, the diagram was the morning inbound working, then a charter out to the west which either terminated at Woking and the stock was used for the additional to Waterloo ( yes - it was given a published time! ) or they simply sold off tickets to balance the numbers who were getting off at Woking.

 

[theageofthetra]

The last time I was on a Fife circle tour run by the group at the Bo'ness there were a fair number of 'normals' on it.

 

[MP33]

The Great Eastern Railway built the powerful 0-10-0 tank engine Decapod to compete with the early electric commuter trains. It could accelerate as fast as a electric train of the time. However it was found that is involved a very high coal and water consumption which was too expensive and also the locomotive could only carry limited amounts.

 

[Marton]

It's not economically feasible to charter a steam train for the purpose of transporting commuters.

For example, see this thread Interesting Service Grosmont - Middlesbrough : Steam loco works service train from January this year. Although it's unclear whether or not any of the passengers were "commuters" (the link to Realtimetrains no longer works, and the service detail wasn't quoted)

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are there protests in towns like Whitby?

The Esk Valley post was mine.

The service in question was to replace the first inbound service.

Commuting from Whitby is not possible. First arrival Middlesbrough is after 1000, last departure from Middlesbrough 1740.

Commuting to Whitby means either a rather short or long day arriving 0840 and leaving 1600 or 1915. It works for the school trip.

Esk Valley's community rail development co has an early service to Middlesbrough on its wish list. There used to be one till the 1990s

I understand this means either opening the line early with an early outward service or basing a unit in Whitby. Neither seem likely in the foreseeable future.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Andrewlong]

Also aren't there rules/regulations about the type of stock which could be used for regular mainline services?