Station usage and population living in catchment area

[Bevan Price]

Seeing as the same trains pass all three stations, all three could have two trains per hour if that was justified. The difference in frequency of stops is a consequence of the patronage levels rather than the cause of it.

Trouble is that it becomes an endless path towards decline. Each time you reduce the frequency, passenger numbers decline even more. The end result is somewhere like Clifton, Reddish South or Denton, with an almost useless service.

 

[fowler9]

Trouble is that it becomes an endless path towards decline. Each time you reduce the frequency, passenger numbers decline even more. The end result is somewhere like Clifton, Reddish South or Denton, with an almost useless service.

Yeah, I think once you get to within a short distance of a city centre an hourly service will basically just kill the chances of anyone using it. I think half hourly is good at West Allerton as it makes it pretty much quicker than any other mode of transport unless things go massively wrong. It could have been better advertised though.

 

[edwin_m]

When setting the service frequency at inner suburban stations, the operator also has to consider the effect on journey time to stations further out. At these stations rail is more likely to be the preferred mode and places like Marple have much greater passenger numbers. It is possible that the loss of passengers travelling longer distances outweighs the extra short-distance journeys.

 

[fowler9]

When setting the service frequency at inner suburban stations, the operator also has to consider the effect on journey time to stations further out. At these stations rail is more likely to be the preferred mode and places like Marple have much greater passenger numbers. It is possible that the loss of passengers travelling longer distances outweighs the extra short-distance journeys.

That is a very good point mate. I was possibly being a bit selfish, if the service at West Allerton was cut it would mean me taking a mode of transport that cost more and took substantially longer at peak times.

 

[Greenback]

Yeah, I think once you get to within a short distance of a city centre an hourly service will basically just kill the chances of anyone using it. I think half hourly is good at West Allerton as it makes it pretty much quicker than any other mode of transport unless things go massively wrong. It could have been better advertised though.

I was looking at an old timetable of the now closed line between Swansea Victoria and Pontardulais. The line served the suburbs of Swansea, with stops at Kilay, Dunvant, Gowerton (South) and Gorseinon. The local services calling at these stations were not even two hourly, so it should have been no surprise that the station receipts were considered too low to keep the route open.

I agree that anything less than a half hourly service will stifle demand. It's true that paths may not be available on heavily used lines, which needs to be borne in mind, but frequency of service is very important to how attractive rail is compared to bus services.

I was also a bit surprised to learn that Gowerton (formerly Gowerton North), which I refererred to earlier in the thread, had only a handful of trains after 1964. How there was any incentive to use the train with such a low level of frequency is beyond me, and it is amazing that it wasn't closed completely. The same applies to Redditch, which I recall having a handful of services back in 1981.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I was looking at an old timetable of the now closed line between Swansea Victoria and Pontardulais. The line served the suburbs of Swansea, with stops at Kilay, Dunvant, Gowerton (South) and Gorseinon. The local services calling at these stations were not even two hourly, so it should have been no surprise that the station receipts were considered too low to keep the route open.

That was the original line of the Llanelly Railway and Dock Company. Between Swansea Victoria and Killay were the two stations of Swansea Bay and Mumbles Road and between Gorseinon and Pontarddulais was the station of Groves End.

 

[Greenback]

That was the original line of the Llanelly Railway and Dock Company. Between Swansea Victoria and Killay were the two stations of Swansea Bay and Mumbles Road and between Gorseinon and Pontarddulais was the station of Groves End.

Yes, that's correct. I forgot about Grovesend, which is really a part of Gorseinon to most people there!

The Swansea Bay station served St Helen's cricket and rugby ground, while Mumbles Road was a useful interchange for the old Mumbles Railway which ran below the main line at Blackpill.

I knew about the railways as my mother is of an age to have used it to get to school and work. However, I always assumed that they had a similar service level to the majority of local commuter lines, a minimum of one an hour. I wonder how they would have fared if, instead of closure, an hourly or greater DMU service had bene introduced?

I think the importance of not solely relying on usage figures and population statistics can't be overstated.

 

[Golden Gripper]

The rail industry can't even get their own connections organised, what chance different modes.

I've written here before about how, travelling London Bridge to Reigate, the FGW connection on the last lap from Redhill is happily sent on its way while passengers are walking through the subway from the London Bridge train a few minutes late. Likewise at Ascot the connection to Camberley happily slams its doors on those trying to run across from the Waterloo train when it is 10 minutes late (which is the standard lateness amount when the fast lines from Clapham to Barnes have some issue), despite being the same operator and just about all the potential passengers being from the connection, hardly anyone starts locally. Apparently punctual to the second starts on an obscure branch are more important than any passengers. If the industry can't sort this out after more than 150 years at the job then what chance proper integration.

The cause of this behaviour is targets, more especially the Public Performance Measure. Even if the branch service is run by the same franchise as the main line it's connecting out of, a delay to the branch train still goes against the PPM, and if that then causes a delay to another train (as might happen to the above FGW service at Guildford) compensation has to be paid. All part of our disfunctional franchise system.

I was at a recent consultation held by the Welsh Assembly at which it was suggested that customer satisfaction would be a better measure of franchise performance than PPM.

 

[infobleep]

The cause of this behaviour is targets, more especially the Public Performance Measure. Even if the branch service is run by the same franchise as the main line it's connecting out of, a delay to the branch train still goes against the PPM, and if that then causes a delay to another train (as might happen to the above FGW service at Guildford) compensation has to be paid. All part of our disfunctional franchise system.

I was at a recent consultation held by the Welsh Assembly at which it was suggested that customer satisfaction would be a better measure of franchise performance than PPM.

How late does a train have to be before they pay out? Is it after 1 minute or 5 minutes?

As someone who tends to end up travelling to places via connecting routes that are less popular, I know what connections can be like. 20 minute wait at Clapham Junction or rushing through central London via underground because London Midland were late once again. Missing a connection would add 20 minutes onto a journey.

I tend to think railways are now run for people to get from A to B but not A to B to C.

I do think time is important. From Guildford, it is quicker to drive to Ash Green or any other station beyond Aldershot as the train waits 10 minutes at Aldershot. Again officially the train from Aldershot to Farnham leaves 3 mins after the Ascot bound train gets in from Guildford. Anyone looking online won't know the trains use the same island and unofficially you are most likely to make your connection. Thus they might drive.

Going to Portsmouth from Guildford in the morning peak is slow because every train stops at every station. I think the 8.04 is the first fast train, 7.25 not getting in that much earlier either. I don't know if factors like this play a part in people's travel plans.

If any of the above situations is replicated across the country it might explain some station usage stats and route usage stats.

 

[David Sinnett]

Do people within a station's catchment area know what train services are available from that station? Where the trains go and where the passenger can get to with a single change?
What promotion of a station and its services is done in it's immediate surround? I've never seen any in the 7 places I've lived.

 

[Greenback]

That's a good point. Having lived in various locatiosn prior to Llanelli, but never far from a railway line, as far as I can tell it's left to the potential customer to find out for themselves. In mycase, this was often done by talking to people 'down the pub'!

Much of the information I found for myself was only accessible when actually at the station. This not so much of a problem now with smartphones, internet and so on, but word of mouth still seems to be one of the major ways that information is passed on!