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Station Name Rationalisation in the South Wales Area

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Smwrff

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Misspellings IMHO should be corrected and these are more commonly seen in south (and to a point west Wales): The classic case is Llanelly being properly corrected to Llanelli, similarly Merthyr Tydfil, where the latter is misspelling of Tudful, or more correctly here, forcing the Welsh spelling to use English spelling rules.

There is some idiocy about, such as both Tonteg and Ton-teg appearing on some signs - the etymology of that one is a bit mixed however - or both Rhydfelen and Rhydyfelen appearing - not sure if this is a mistranslation, misspelling, but both are quite valid and describe different aspects of the area; so it could just be two Welsh names are used for the same place, or it is just a local pronounciation issue.

If an area has a Welsh name, then use that; if it has both a Welsh and English name that are sufficiently different, eg: Newport/Casnewydd then both. Misspellings, eg: ff->f in Trefforest, should overtime be corrected. Restoration of the definitive article in Celtic placenames also comes under thing, Y Barri being a good example where there "Y" has been dropped (cf: Yr Wyddgrug/Mold).

If you want a very interesting case, then Pontypridd, which is a contraction of Pont y Ty Pridd, but the town was renamed Newbridge from about 1756 to the 1860s.

But, if you want to go down the road of names, then maybe Glasgow should also have its original Brittonic/Welsh names on signs too....
Spot on - fix the Anglicised mis-spelling of Welsh place names first.

But at the same time we dont need to be too precocious about strict grammatical rules....

Why is it neccesary to insist on Pen-y-bont but not Pont-y-pridd...... and Barri is probably ok without the Y...etc
 
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Agent_Squash

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So much of our taxpayer’s money is being wasted on Welsh/English versions in Wales.

Use the name that’s most common in the area. It’s not hard. And it really shouldn’t be ignored how much productivity is being lost through all these bi-lingual efforts, however well intentioned.

(And for those who say the younger generation are learning: they don’t remember it. I know too many people who got a A/B in Welsh at GCSE and can’t remember a word now.)
 

deltic

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While this is a contentious issue, I find it quite odd and completely disjointed compared to the direction of travel elsewhere in Europe.

If you go to Amsterdam, Schiphol has _only_ English signage. Brussels airport is the same. Many commercial establishments as well in Amsterdam only had signage in English (including job adverts for bar staff!).
This causes a lot of resentment in places like the Netherlands and Berlin where in some establishments the staff can't speak the local language and is one of the factors that has led to the rise of anti-immigration parties.
 

Falcon1200

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the English butt out?

Are the English really dictating to the Welsh, Scots etc how they should name their stations?!!

Here in Scotland my local station has dual language name signs, which presumably replaced one-name only signs, at a cost. Yet in over 30 years living here, and working for the railway for much of that time, I have never heard the Gaelic version used to refer to the station, or indeed the town; Not once, ever! Gaelic is simply not in common, or any, use in this part of the country.
 

Fawkes Cat

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Here in Scotland my local station has dual language name signs, which presumably replaced one-name only signs, at a cost. Yet in over 30 years living here, and working for the railway for much of that time, I have never heard the Gaelic version used to refer to the station, or indeed the town; Not once, ever! Gaelic is simply not in common, or any, use in this part of the country.
So if there are stations in areas where English isn't commonly spoken (I have no idea if there are any stations in that category in GB) there shouldn't be English language signs?
 

Falcon1200

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So if there are stations in areas where English isn't commonly spoken

I very much doubt there are any such stations anywhere in the UK, but happy to be corrected if you can identify any!

Gaelic, and indeed Welsh, name signs are entirely appropriate where those names are actually used, not so sure of the purpose and benefit, plus expense, where they are not; Not just rarely but not used ever, at all. However it is entirely up to devolved or local administrations how they identify locations, including stations.
 

rf_ioliver

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Spot on - fix the Anglicised mis-spelling of Welsh place names first.

But at the same time we dont need to be too precocious about strict grammatical rules....

Why is it neccesary to insist on Pen-y-bont but not Pont-y-pridd...... and Barri is probably ok without the Y...etc
Pen-y-Bont ... maybe to distinguish it as a placename rather than a statement?

Pont y Ty Pridd -> Pontypridd ... most likely due to the contraction of Y Ty to just Y (the overall meaning doesn't change, but the "house" is dropped). Nearby is Tynant, which may be a contraction of Ty yn Y Nant -> Ty'n y Nant -> Tynant, OR, Tyn Nant meaning "tight stream" (I think it is the former though with Ty yn -> Ty'n -> Tyn )

Barri vs Y Barri ... I'm going to be a bit of a Grammar N*** on this one, the use of the definitive article in Celtic placenames is a feature of the naming, so this should be used (the guide below, might disagree)

UPDATE:

To end all discussion in this thread, this is the naming guide for standardising Welsh place names: https://www.welshlanguagecommissioner.wales/media/twgbcoaa/20250228-dg-s-guidelines-for-standardising.pdf which itself builds upon Rhestr o Enwau Lleoedd/A Gazetteer of Welsh Place-Names (3rd edn; University of Wales Press, 1967)

So to explain the above, placenames are compound words, with certain hyphenation and alliteration/orthographical rules. Also this statement is provided:

Pedantic or revived antiquarian forms or literal and whimsical translations should be avoided, unless there is sound evidence that they are in common use (Brychdyn, Cei Connah, Cil-y-coed). Logical coinages based on well-established names may be used. For example, Aberddawan is the established Welsh form of Aberthaw, so Dwyrain/Gorllewin Aberddawan may be adopted, despite the lack of historical written evidence of a Welsh form for East/West Aberthaw
 

35B

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I very much doubt there are any such stations anywhere in the UK, but happy to be corrected if you can identify any!

Gaelic, and indeed Welsh, name signs are entirely appropriate where those names are actually used, not so sure of the purpose and benefit, plus expense, where they are not; Not just rarely but not used ever, at all. However it is entirely up to devolved or local administrations how they identify locations, including stations.
The purpose and benefit is part of a nationalist political project, be that Welsh, Scots, Irish, Cornish, or whatever. The "original" language in use in the place becomes identified with the "native" population, and becomes fused as part of a national-cultural project to boost national feeling, and provide identity. This was true in pre-independence Ireland, where the Irish language was (and still is) a minority tongue, but became used as a symbol of national belonging (including by many nationalist politicians who didn't know it). It is similarly true in Cornwall today, where the Cornish nationalist campaign is very visibly trying to use the effectively defunct Cornish tongue to help craft a distinctively Cornish identity.

The same pattern has been used elsewhere, and was for example found extensively in the various parts of the Habsburg Empire as nationalism grew in the 19th century.

What is interesting to me is that this liberal (in the best sense of the word) attempt to give credit to the languages people actually speak day to day (in some parts of Wales, Welsh; in the Czech lands, Czech, etc.) has curdled into an inward determination to draw lines and define culture and nationality by difference and exclude others.

This is especially difficult in areas (North Wales comes to mind) where there is a double minority - the local tongue is a minority when considered nationally, but the national tongue is a minority language within the area).
 

Tomos y Tanc

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I was with you until I got to this paragraph.
What is interesting to me is that this liberal (in the best sense of the word) attempt to give credit to the languages people actually speak day to day (in some parts of Wales, Welsh; in the Czech lands, Czech, etc.) has curdled into an inward determination to draw lines and define culture and nationality by difference and exclude others.


Who is is being excluded? Languages can be learned. The immediate past chairman of Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg was a West African asylum seeker. The last President of the National Eisteddfod was a Sikh. Wales has a thriving Welsh Language MOBO scene.

If there is a problem here it arises from the stubborn refusal of some English speakers to make even the slightest effort to respect local cultures and languages, not just within the UK, but in ex-pat communities in places like Spain and Portugal.
 

Fawkes Cat

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pragmatically it's not for the railway to lead on this issue - nor is it for them to lag behind. So if the road into town has bilingual name signs, then the station name should be bilingual as well: if the town makes do with one version of the name, then the station should do the same.
Many thanks to everyone in the last several posts for demonstrating how wise* I was in my posting #13 some time back.

*not to say modest
 

35B

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I was with you until I got to this paragraph.




Who is is being excluded? Languages can be learned. The immediate past chairman of Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg was a West African asylum seeker. The last President of the National Eisteddfod was a Sikh. Wales has a thriving Welsh Language MOBO scene.

If there is a problem here it arises from the stubborn refusal of some English speakers to make even the slightest effort to respect local cultures and languages, not just within the UK, but in ex-pat communities in places like Spain and Portugal.
You demonstrate the exclusionary power of language politics*. I've absolutely no doubt about those expats, and completely agree with the principle of "when in Rome", but my experience as a visitor to North Wales was, amongst other things, of an exclusionary use of language. Similarly, a school friend of my wife (not from Wales) was interviewed for a place at a university in a Welsh speaking area, and the interviewer spoke in Welsh, very obviously intending to make life hard - as shown by his embarrassment and about turn when she responded, showing perfect understanding of the language.

My view remains that the pattern set by the Swiss is the best one; to acknowledge that the country (or parts of it) is multi-lingual, to mandate the use of all languages on signage, but to have the dominant local language lead. In Wales, that would mean some areas (Gwynnedd is an obvious example) being led by Welsh, but others (say SE Wales, where the statistics do show that English is the dominant language) leading on English.

* - yes, I am aware that language politics reflect a number of deeper historical issues affecting the area
 

zwk500

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My view remains that the pattern set by the Swiss is the best one; to acknowledge that the country (or parts of it) is multi-lingual, to mandate the use of all languages on signage, but to have the dominant local language lead. In Wales, that would mean some areas (Gwynnedd is an obvious example) being led by Welsh, but others (say SE Wales, where the statistics do show that English is the dominant language) leading on English.
By way of comparison, this is the approach also followed in the Republic of Ireland with English generally being the first language displayed but in the Gaeltacht the order is reversed.

But that is part of a wider language policy, which is fundamentally a social policy issue for the Welsh government. My view remains, as with @Fawkes Cat, that it's not for the railway to be renaming people's towns. That is a decision for the residents of the towns and their elected representatives. However, if a town council so chose to standardise on the Welsh version, the railway should not wait an unreasonable length of time to follow the change.
 

35B

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By way of comparison, this is the approach also followed in the Republic of Ireland with English generally being the first language displayed but in the Gaeltacht the order is reversed.

But that is part of a wider language policy, which is fundamentally a social policy issue for the Welsh government. My view remains, as with @Fawkes Cat, that it's not for the railway to be renaming people's towns. That is a decision for the residents of the towns and their elected representatives. However, if a town council so chose to standardise on the Welsh version, the railway should not wait an unreasonable length of time to follow the change.
I would agree with that - but also express the hope that, in reaching a decision, the responsible authority would consult widely to understand the impact
 

Spartacus

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By way of comparison, this is the approach also followed in the Republic of Ireland with English generally being the first language displayed but in the Gaeltacht the order is reversed.

But that is part of a wider language policy, which is fundamentally a social policy issue for the Welsh government. My view remains, as with @Fawkes Cat, that it's not for the railway to be renaming people's towns. That is a decision for the residents of the towns and their elected representatives. However, if a town council so chose to standardise on the Welsh version, the railway should not wait an unreasonable length of time to follow the change.

I like the way the Irish do it as well, with different fonts for each, it saves, albeit unusually brief, confusion when you'd be better having you eyes on the road.

I always think it's best not to get into re-namings. There's always going to be confusion if done quickly, and there may be some unintended consequences. Some historians believe Cynwyl Elfed may have been somewhat of a last 'outpost' of a group of exiles from Elmet, Yorkshire, so the Anglicised station name 'Conwil' may be closer to what it might otherwise be! Conwyl-in-Elmet seems appropriate! :lol: That';s if the Gwili manages to reopen that far.
 

Envoy

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Click the following link for the Official of National Statistics map of Wales (2021) regarding those who can / cannot speak Welsh. You can zoom down to individual areas. This should help determine those areas that are likely to be favourable to changing names to Welsh only and those which wish to retain the English name/spelling. (Best to zoom out first and get an overview).

 

BeijingDave

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What would the Welsh speakers prefer is displayed on the departure board at Cardiff Airport?

Lisboa, Lisbon or Llundain?

Just curious.
 

mrmartin

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I was with you until I got to this paragraph.




Who is is being excluded? Languages can be learned. The immediate past chairman of Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg was a West African asylum seeker. The last President of the National Eisteddfod was a Sikh. Wales has a thriving Welsh Language MOBO scene.

If there is a problem here it arises from the stubborn refusal of some English speakers to make even the slightest effort to respect local cultures and languages, not just within the UK, but in ex-pat communities in places like Spain and Portugal.
But it's not that. I know a lot of people in Portugal (Lisbon, not the classic algarve brits abroad), and they all speak English all the time, but a tiny fraction are native English speakers (Indian/Pakistani/Ukrainian/French are very common expat groups there).

This is the same in the EU parliament/commission even - in the last decade or two we've went from every minister/head of state doing their speeches in their native language. Now it's somewhat rare to not have it in English.

When you go to Brussels you'll hear in the bars and cafes in the European Quarter everyone speaking mostly speaking English. We famously left that organisation some time ago!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

This causes a lot of resentment in places like the Netherlands and Berlin where in some establishments the staff can't speak the local language and is one of the factors that has led to the rise of anti-immigration parties.
You've got to admit though that it really shows the direction of travel linguistically though that commercial ventures are choosing this. The speed at anglicisation in Europe is actually pretty astounding to me, when I was younger visiting a country it was extremely hard to do outside of very touristy places without the language. Now it's very rare that people in hospitality at least don't speak pretty good english, even in very off the beaten track places. I'm in my 30s!
 

DelW

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When you go to Brussels you'll hear in the bars and cafes in the European Quarter everyone speaking mostly speaking English. We famously left that organisation some time ago!
Local sensibilities may play a part there. I came close to being thrown out of a bar in Brussels a dozen or so years ago, when I went in and ordered in my best French. Although Brussels is officially bilingual, it turned out this was a majority Flemish area and French was definitely not welcomed. (It also turned out that the proprietor was from the Balkans and his wife Scandinavian, so they spoke English at home).
 

Smwrff

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I have some Dutch friends, whose daughter was dating a Flemish speaking Belgian. He was so anti-French (language) that he refused to used common words such as Restaurant when speaking Dutch or English - instead using a little used Dutch word which just made him sound weird.
 
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