Station Groups / Clusters for Manchester CTLZ

[Pete@Raspberry]

Hello all

I have some code that reads the RSPS5045 fare files to extract point to point fares. This is used commercially by some TOCs (but not for selling tickets). I'm having a spot of bother working out how some fares get calculated, and I was wondering if anyone here could perhaps point me in the right direction.

One customer has just reported a gap in the data; for the journey Romiley to Manchester Piccadilly no fares were found. If we look at the same journey on BRFares:
http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=RML&dest=MAN
then it is clear that the flow chosen is based on MAN (2968) being a member of a group called MANCHESTER CTLZ (0451). That's fine; I can see 0451 in the LOC data, and that it is indeed in Manchester. But I can't see how MAN is related to it.
Looking at bit deeper into the data, the LOC file includes groups of stations. MAN is a member of 4 groups:
0438 Manchester stations
G238 Metrolink zone H
H169 Manch & bus
J819 Manchester and bus
but none of these seem to relate to 0451.
The clusters FSC file also includes MAN as a member of 7 clusters:
Q812
Q814
Q836
Q837
Q902
Q934
QB40
But again, these don't relate to 0451. Also clusters seem to me to be too big a geographical grouping for what is ultimately a short rail journey!

Interestingly there is a flow between ROMILEY and G238 (one of the groups) and with a bit of work to the data this was being found. But it's not the same flow as the one presented by BRFares. A comparison with National Rail would suggest that BRFares is (of course) correct to present this flow.

So: How do you get from NLC 2968 to 0451? Any suggestions gratefully received!

Many thanks

Pete

 

[transplanted]

I am sorry if I am completely missing the point here, but is this to do with Romily being within the greater manchester bounday. I don't think i've seen any fares from within GM to the city centre stations, just CTRLZ

 

[Pete@Raspberry]

I am sorry if I am completely missing the point here, but is this to do with Romily being within the greater manchester bounday. I don't think i've seen any fares from within GM to the city centre stations, just CTRLZ

Hello transplanted
It could very well be to do with that - but I'm not sure where in the data it would say that Romiley is to be considered a part of Manchester. Also, it is more around the link between MAN and CTLZ - how do I know to pick a flow with a destination NLC of 0451, when the user was querying MAN (2968)?

Ultimately it feels like this is a 'within the city limits' thing. Just getting to that from the data is where I'm struggling!

Cheers
Pete

 

[OwlMan]

It is a special destination enabling use of the tram within the central zone
.

.From iKB
Travel to Manchester
Tickets (including seasons) from all stations in Greater Manchester to Deansgate, Oxford Road, Piccadilly and Victoria, and must be issued to “Manchester Ctl Zone”, not “Manchester Stns”.

Tickets to Manchester Ctl Zone are valid on:

Metrolink services between Piccadilly, Deansgate-Castlefield (G-Mex), and Victoria (and intermediate stations).

For journeys starting or ending outside the Greater Manchester area, tickets will not be valid on Metrolink for transfer between Manchester Piccadilly and Victoria.

 

[DaiGog]

0451 is used from stations within the Greater Manchester county boundary i for journeys into the city, and is used place of the individual station NLCs. It represents a Manchester city central zone, with transfer into the city centre included in the price, using the Metrolink trams. Rather than being a station group in the truest sense, such as Manchester Stns (0438) which retail systems link to when a fare to an individual station (such as MAN / MCV) is selected, it would appear that 0451 is a location in its own right, hence 'no fares found' when you select a journey from within the county boundary to MAN. Seemingly you just have to know which are the origin stations as the link in the data isn't there.

 

[Pete@Raspberry]

Thanks OwlMan and DaiGog - that makes sense. This is what is being described here then: https://www.tfgm.com/tickets-and-passes/combination-train-and-tram-day-return-adult

I'm struggling to believe that the ticket retail systems 'just know' that when you buy a ticket to a central Manchester station from a Greater Manchester station the destination should be 0451 instead of 0438. I guess this could have been done, but there is so much provision for different routes and flows in the data that I would have thought something could be represented here in some way.

Is there anyone from BRFares / Fujitsu / NationalRail / Worldline / A.N.Other retail system that could comment?

Thanks to all

Pete

 

[transplanted]

Must it not be something to do with the origin code?

You can't buy to Manchester central zone from stations outside of GM only Manchester stations.

 

[Haywain]

It is likely to be something in the station data (I'm guessing, by the way) that links Manchester Stations and Manchester CTLZ so that whichever is applicable is selected. In the same way others will do this such as individual London Terminal codes.

 

[lyndhurst25]

http://www.brfares.com/#!locations?dest=MCZ

Some of those stations aren't in the Greater Manchester rail zone e.g. Knutsford, Mobberley, Ashley, (New Mills Central and Newtown).

Some stations in the Greater Manchester rail zone aren't listed e.g. Denton, Reddish South.