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Station Groups and Advanced Tickets

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Diab342

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A passenger has a first class advanced ticket, importantly not an "& connections" ticket, from Huddersfield to Manchester stations. Including a mandatory reservation for a TPE service from HUD to MAN (Manchester Piccadilly). The passenger wishes to finish their journey at MCO (Manchester Oxford Road). By the letter of the rules, would the passenger have the right to travel from MAN to MCO to finish their journey on this ticket?

On the one hand their ticket is valid to Manchester Stations which includes MCO. On the other hand, since their ticket is an advance ticket, they can only travel on the reserved train services shown on the ticket which does not include a connection to Oxford Road from Piccadilly.

Sidenote - I think this weird ticket glitch id because there are no first class tickets between MAN and MCO since the journey is planned to be 2 minutes if not less.
 
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Tazi Hupefi

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It wouldn't be valid on any service with reservations between Piccadilly and Oxford Road. I suspect this excludes all services, as all operators on that route have counted places at least.

Obviously no ticket check on board, but Northern revenue protection are definitely going to be around, should they take issue.

It's unlikely to be an issue in practice and the issue of validity is purely a technical one.
 

MrJeeves

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It's unlikely to be an issue in practice and the issue of validity is purely a technical one.
I think it boils down to this, really.

It's not technically valid, but it'll still open the gates and I highly doubt anyone will care in practice (let alone even realise it's not valid!).
 

Diab342

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It wouldn't be valid on any service with reservations between Piccadilly and Oxford Road.
Nice ok thanks for answering :) How does the reservations affect if it's valid or not? - sidenote I understand you (used) to be able to travel on any connecting services with an "& connections" ticket if you didn't have a reservation. But you did have to travel on a specific service if you did have a reservation. Is it related to that?
It's unlikely to be an issue in practice and the issue of validity is purely a technical one.

I agree, and I believe the ticket barriers will open at MCO for a Manchester stations ticket. But from a rules point of view it's incredibly stupid we have a Schrodinger's ticket situation where it seemingly is and isn't valid to make this journey.
 

Mcr Warrior

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A passenger has a first class advanced ticket, importantly not an "& connections" ticket, from Huddersfield to Manchester stations. Including a mandatory reservation for a TPE service from HUD to MAN (Manchester Piccadilly). The passenger wishes to finish their journey at MCO (Manchester Oxford Road). By the letter of the rules, would the passenger have the right to travel from MAN to MCO to finish their journey on this ticket?
Is the situation any different if travelling on the TPE service from Huddersfield to Manchester Airport which calls at Manchester Oxford Road before then calling at Manchester Piccadilly?
 

Hadders

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Is the ticket issued to Manchester Stations? I’d have thought it ought to be issued specifically to Manchester Piccadilly.
 

pokemonsuper9

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I didn't know advanced tickets were issued to groups? I've only ever seen ones issued to specific stations, even when a group exists (e.g. to Manchester Victoria).
 

Tazi Hupefi

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Nice ok thanks for answering :) How does the reservations affect if it's valid or not? - sidenote I understand you (used) to be able to travel on any connecting services with an "& connections" ticket if you didn't have a reservation. But you did have to travel on a specific service if you did have a reservation. Is it related to that?


I agree, and I believe the ticket barriers will open at MCO for a Manchester stations ticket. But from a rules point of view it's incredibly stupid we have a Schrodinger's ticket situation where it seemingly is and isn't valid to make this journey.
You have never been able to travel on "any" train as part of the connections part - only the ones that are not reservable.

However what did happen a while ago is that previously unreservable trains, especially local ones, introduced counted place reservations - making them reservable, and other than Merseyrail, I think all trains are now reservable north of Milton Keynes which has eliminated most of that previous flexibility.

With Advance tickets you are obliged to take the trains on which you are reserved.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Is the ticket issued to Manchester Stations? I’d have thought it ought to be issued specifically to Manchester Piccadilly.
BR Fares seems to suggest that route "AP TPE Only" Advance Singles (which appear to be the only advance purchase fares available) are issued from Huddersfield to "Manchester Stns".
And also that seat reservations are required/compulsory.
 

MrJeeves

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I didn't know advanced tickets were issued to groups? I've only ever seen ones issued to specific stations, even when a group exists (e.g. to Manchester Victoria).
You can get both. It's even funnier when both are available for the same train at different price points too!

For example, Avanti price London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly advances, but also London Terminals to Manchester Stations advances. Their group advances typically are routed & connections though. They're also a few quid dearer as well.

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Haywain

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It wouldn't be valid on any service with reservations between Piccadilly and Oxford Road. I suspect this excludes all services, as all operators on that route have counted places at least.
As the ticket is routed AP TPE only it wouldn't be valud on any service operated by a TOC other than TPE either.
 

Joe Paxton

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You have never been able to travel on "any" train as part of the connections part - only the ones that are not reservable.
[...]

Though in practice this distinction was bonkers - if you had an Advance "& connections" ticket with a suggested itinerary (for the "& connections" element) on a non-reservable train, then this wouldn't normally be printed on your ticket - plus of course it was only 'suggested'. The idea that a normal passenger should therefore appreciate the difference between trains that were reservable and trains that were not reservable (for the "& connections" part) was just absurd, and never actually explained or outlined to the passenger in any way by the industry. It certainly wouldn't have stood up to any scrutiny in a court!
 

crablab

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You have never been able to travel on "any" train as part of the connections part - only the ones that are not reservable
Hmm, source? I don't recall this in the NRCoT; is it in the restriction code?

Even if the reservable service was marked as "mandatory reservations", they are essentially meaningless ie. there is nothing in the NRCoT which binds either party on them, nor are there offences which relate to ignoring them. To all intents, it's "hopes and dreams" from the TOCs that people obey the request.

By extension, I'm not sure how ticket validity could be tied to whether a service is marked as reservable or not in the timetable and, in any case, this would be reasonably difficult for a "normie" passenger to discern without assistance.

The idea that a normal passenger should therefore appreciate the difference between trains that were reservable and trains that were not reservable (for the "& connections" part) was just absurd, and never actually explained or outlined to the passenger in any way by the industry.
I'm minded to agree. I would appreciate clarification on where this was defined.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

By the letter of the rules, would the passenger have the right to travel from MAN to MCO to finish their journey on this ticket?
I was going to suggest the passenger might be inclined to travel within the station group the ticket they hold is destined for, the purpose being for interchange. However, it appears the latest version of the routeing guide has fixed this 'issue':
Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the
permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.
 
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Watershed

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However, it appears the latest version of the routeing guide has fixed this 'issue':
The wording has been like that for as long as I can remember, so I don't think it's a recent change.

It permits a double-back in circumstances where it might otherwise be barred; in this case, there isn't a double-back so it is purely a question of whether travelling beyond Piccadilly is permitted.
 

crablab

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It permits a double-back in circumstances where it might otherwise be barred; in this case, there isn't a double-back so it is purely a question of whether travelling beyond Piccadilly is permitted.
It also explicitly permits travel within the group for interchange purposes, which might not be inferred otherwise :) And depending on direction, that might be double backing.

In any case, the point is moot here as the Manchester Stations group isn't encountered enroute - it's the destination
The wording has been like that for as long as I can remember, so I don't think it's a recent change.
Ah, thanks. I wasn't sure.
 

redreni

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As I understand it the public-facing rule has always been that you must stick to your itinerary full stop, but the rule as far as the industry was concerned (and thus the one that was applied and enforced in practice) was as @Tazi Hupefi describes.

Nobody in the industry seemed to think it was a problem that they were selling tickets with less advertised flexibility than the tickets had in reality. The idea that passengers might value the flexibility they had on the connecting legs or that they might need or want to know what the actual rules were (without having to come to an online forum such as this one) seemed not to have occurred to anyone, or at least wasn't regarded as significant. Better to just tell people they can't do stuff seemed to be the attitude.

But of course, people noticed that people who checked tickets on the connecting legs didn't want to look at the reservation coupon (and would sometimes even say things like 'don't worry about that, as long as you've got a ticket') so a lot of people (not just on this forum, but 'normies' as well) became familiar with the flexibility of the actual rules even though they weren't advertised or written down.

The industry then made an unannounced technical change, during lockdown when nobody was travelling, which made thousands of previously unreservable local and regional trains reservable and therefore made the booked itinerary enforceable on the connecting legs of a journey. They didn't reverse that when lockdown ended. And then they wonder why people don't understand the rules, which haven't changed on paper but have changed fundamentally in practice.

Even if passengers were told that they have flexibility on unreservable but not reservable trains (which they're not), they would also need to know, where their itinerary tells them to take a specific train but doesn't give them a seat reservation, whether that is an unreservable service or a reservable service with counted places. Which they're not. The ordinary passenger has bob hope of understanding this.

In south east England there's a further complication where GTR elects not to enforce reservations some of the time (i.e. where they regard their train as a connecting leg rather than the main leg - neither of these terms has a precise definition and the customer isn't told how their booked journey breaks down between the main and the connecting legs).

It's really rather inconvenient. Where I have a connecting leg on a reservable service, if it's a high-frequency service or there's a realistic possibility of making an unofficial connection, I normally end up working out my own split so that I buy a flexible ticket on the connecting leg. Otherwise you can, for example, arrive on time in Leeds from London 9 minutes before a connecting local train is leaving, have to watch it leave and then wait half an hour for your booked connection that meets the MCT. That seems to me to be pretty obviously anti-passenger. I don't agree with the notion that most people just want to be given an itinerary and follow that - if, on the day, an earlier connection is available, people would prefer to take it if allowed to. And people should be told whether they're allowed to or not, rather than have to guess which TOCs and guards will or will not enforce it.
 

JonathanH

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The industry then made an unannounced technical change, during lockdown when nobody was travelling, which made thousands of previously unreservable local and regional trains reservable and therefore made the booked itinerary enforceable on the connecting legs of a journey. They didn't reverse that when lockdown ended.
Northern was offering advances on its local services before 2020. As soon as they did that, the services became reservable from the point of view of those same services being connections into other operators services.
 

saismee

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I was going to suggest the passenger might be inclined to travel within the station group the ticket they hold is destined for, the purpose being for interchange. However, it appears the latest version of the routeing guide has fixed this 'issue':
Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the
permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.
This is confusing me... so an X to Manchester Stations ticket isn't valid to MCO if the itinerary only goes to MAN, even on a flexible ticket? Or is it only valid on specific trains (if so, which ones??) This is wildly unfriendly.
 

Mcr Warrior

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This is confusing me... so an X to Manchester Stations ticket isn't valid to MCO if the itinerary only goes to MAN, even on a flexible ticket? Or is it only valid on specific trains (if so, which ones??) This is wildly unfriendly.
Flexible tickets (off peak, anytime, not TOC restricted) are surely valid. Weren't we originally talking about advances, though?
 

crablab

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This is confusing me... so an X to Manchester Stations ticket isn't valid to MCO if the itinerary only goes to MAN, even on a flexible ticket? Or is it only valid on specific trains (if so, which ones??) This is wildly unfriendly.
If the destination is the Group then the ticket is valid to other stations in the Group* subject to the Routeing Guide, as per usual.

This extract (from the explanation to the Routeing Guide) clarifies that if you had a ticket via a Group (eg. A -> Manchester Group -> B) you're allowed to use services (including doubling back) to interchange between stations in the Group, as your service from A may arrive at a different terminus to that which your onward connection to B departs from. This is to simplify things for the passenger, and avoid duplicating fares for stations in a very similar geographic area.

*Note the routeing restrictions for London Terminals Group when crossing the river (ie. you can't use a Northern terminus - eg. STP - from the Southern side via Thameslink)

Weren't we originally talking about advances, though?
Yes. Although these can be routed in a similar way, it isn't relevant here so apologies for confusing the situation.
 

Watershed

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This is confusing me... so an X to Manchester Stations ticket isn't valid to MCO if the itinerary only goes to MAN, even on a flexible ticket? Or is it only valid on specific trains (if so, which ones??) This is wildly unfriendly.
We are purely talking about Advance tickets here, where you must (usually) follow the booked itinerary exactly.

For walk-up tickets there would be no issue travelling to other stations in the Manchester group, subject to operator restrictions (e.g. a TPE only ticket couldn't be used to get to Deansgate on practical grounds).
 

saismee

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We are purely talking about Advance tickets here, where you must (usually) follow the booked itinerary exactly.
With the limited context in the quote posted, I can't tell if its advance-specific group changing or not, it's just a little unclear. In any case, the OP wasn't asking about changing either, so it seems the thread has gotten quite off-topic.

I would assume that using an advance ticket from X to Manchester Stations wouldn't be valid to MCO if the itinerary specifies to MAN. I assume it just says Manchester Stations as a sort of ticket issuing oversight and that the ticket is only valid to MAN.

Clicking on the words "Advance Ticket" when selecting the ticket on Trainline (and other similar retailers) displays this:
DESCRIPTION
Non-refundable ticket, only valid for the date, time and trains specified.
Although I don't think this is entirely accurate (if the NRCoT and other terms don't state it), it's generally reasonable to expect that the ticket cannot be used to another station in a group.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Just to re-iterate that a Huddersfield to Manchester Stns journey with TPE is slightly unusual, in that some TPE services go directly to Manchester Piccadilly (routed via Guide Bridge, before usually then terminating on platform one) whereas other TPE services will loop via Manchester Victoria, then Manchester Oxford Road before reaching Manchester Piccadilly (platform thirteen) and then continuing onwards to terminate at Manchester Airport.

So if you have an advance "route TPE only" ticket from Huddersfield to Manchester Stns with an accompanying reservation to Manchester Piccadilly, on a train routed via Manchester Victoria and Manchester Oxford Road, can you legitimately alight at Manchester Oxford Road?
 

redreni

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So if you have an advance "route TPE only" ticket from Huddersfield to Manchester Stns with an accompanying reservation to Manchester Piccadilly, on a train routed via Manchester Victoria and Manchester Oxford Road, can you legitimately alight at Manchester Oxford Road?
Good question.

I can't see as you'd have done anything not permitted by the T&Cs or ticket restrictions. It can't surely be regarded as break of journey or finishing short if you have arrived at the destination stated on your ticket?
 

Mcr Warrior

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It can't surely be regarded as break of journey or finishing short if you have arrived at the destination stated on your ticket?
But Manchester Oxford Road won't be what's shown as the destination on the accompanying (compulsory) reservation.
 

redreni

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But Manchester Oxford Road won't be what's shown as the destination on the accompanying (compulsory) reservation.
It's compulsory to travel on the booked train, which you would be, and finishing short is prohibited, which you wouldn't be if you take the destination to be what the pricing TOC (not the passenger) has chosen to print on the ticket. Any ambiguity here goes in the passenger's favour as far as I'm concerned.

If, for some strange reason, they want to stop the passenger getting off at Oxford Road, they should issue the ticket specifically to Piccadilly.
 
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