Starting short on split tickets

[AshValePsngr]

I haven't a specific scenario for this, but I have wondered off and on about the below:


----------------Start short---No stop--------------Finish
A---------B----------C----------D--------------------E
<-Season-><-Anytime day return-><-Anytime day return->

Apologies for the crude ASCII art

I have a season ticket covering A-B

I want to catch a train going from C-E but it doesn't stop at D

Splitting from B-D and D-E is much cheaper than a straight ticket from C-E

Can I purchase a ticket from B-D, and one from D-E, start short at C, and combined with my season from A-B be okay with the train not calling at the split?

 

[1E05]

I would be inclined to say no but as a season ticket is involved I am going to leave the answer to the experts.

 

[island]

I am also minded to say no as you have not used the season ticket for your journey, but depending on the stations involved it may be difficult to detect. For example if A were London Paddington, B were Slough, C were Reading, D Didcot Parkway, and E Swindon (ignore the fare maths here!) then it would be very difficult for the guard to detect anything wrong.

 

[yorkie]

No.

Your journey is C to E, using two Day Returns.

You may find our Fares Guide helpful:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1179633&postcount=10

As you can see, you MAY combine two or more tickets for one journey.

In this case your journey is C to E, and you are using two Day Returns for this journey. Therefore, if you wish to combine these two tickets for one journey, you must comply with 19(b).

If your journey was A to C, D or E, then that would be a different matter, and 19(c) would apply.

 

[AshValePsngr]

No.

Your journey is C to E, using two Day Returns.
...[snip]...
As you can see, you MAY combine two or more tickets for one journey.

In this case your journey is C to E, and you are using two Day Returns for this journey. Therefore, if you wish to combine these two tickets for one journey, you must comply with 19(b).

If your journey was A to C, D or E, then that would be a different matter, and 19(c) would apply.

Thanks for the comments so far. What if one leg were from/to A? For example if I were planning to start short at C and finish on the return leg at A, would that then be a valid split? What about starting at A, and stopping short at C on the return leg?

 

[yorkie]

To clarify as I said earlier yes if the journey is A to C (or C to A) its fine.

Was our Fares Guide helpful?

I find condition 19 does need reading a few times to master it but once you've got it, it's quite straightforward.

If you are using ONE season and any number of non seasons for your journey then there is no need to call anywhere.

You can't legitimately pretend to be doing a different journey if that's what you are hinting at ( sorry if you aren't ..
!)

 

[Flamingo]

If there are two seasons and a non-season, does it have to stop at the season splitting station? I had somebody with that last week, as I didn't know I let him off.

It was Pad-Did, Did-Bth, and a single Bth Bri.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If there are two seasons and a non-season, does it have to stop at the season splitting station? I had somebody with that last week, as I didn't know I let him off.

It was Pad-Did, Did-Bth, and a single Bth Bri.

If there are two seasons used during the journey then the train would have to call (19b).

If two seasons have a non-season ticket (and a scheduled passenger stop) between them you might allow it as if they are making two consecutive journeys, but that's not an official line.

 

[Flamingo]

Ok, thanks for that. My gut was that it wasn't allowed, but as I was not 100% I let him off...

 

[island]

Ok, thanks for that. My gut was that it wasn't allowed, but as I was not 100% I let him off...

Which is precisely what every staff member should do!

 

[AshValePsngr]

To clarify as I said earlier yes if the journey is A to C (or C to A) its fine.

Was our Fares Guide helpful?

I find condition 19 does need reading a few times to master it but once you've got it, it's quite straightforward.

If you are using ONE season and any number of non seasons for your journey then there is no need to call anywhere.

You can't legitimately pretend to be doing a different journey if that's what you are hinting at ( sorry if you aren't ..
!)

Thanks Yorkie. I really appreciate the time and effort that has been spent putting together that part of the forum. I've read many of those sections on occasion. I think I have a grasp on the 1 season, many non season tickets part.
I am still slightly confused by your first sentence as it can be taken in two different ways (A-E then returning E-C, or just A-C), so just to fully clarify. If I start short at C and travel to E, then return from E to A, both legs would be fine due to the season, and two non season tickets. I'm most concerned about the outward from C to E as on the outward part I wouldn't be travelling on the part of the journey that uses the season ticket as I would be starting short.

 

[yorkie]

If I start short at C and travel to E

That journey is using tickets which are all non-Seasons, so the train does need to call.

then return from E to A,

That journey is using one Season and two non-Seasons, so the train does not need to call.

both legs would be fine due to the season, and two non season tickets

No, the journeys are different.

I'm most concerned about the outward from C to E as on the outward part I wouldn't be travelling on the part of the journey that uses the season ticket as I would be starting short.

That journey is from C to E, using two day returns, so the train needs to call.

The key word here is "journey".

 

[AshValePsngr]

Okay, just to close out this thread. My confusion was that I had imagined 'journey' to mean my entire journey in both directions. Although ambiguous in a few places, in at least sections 16 and 42 of the nrcoc it is very clear that for a return ticket you are making two journeys. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[bb21]

I'm not sure you can possibly argue by any sane definition going C-E-C-A in the manner you described is ONE journey.

I would offer you support if I can see anything that would support your line of argument, but unfortunately i can't. It would be quite absurd to claim that your journey is A-E when actually it is C-E.

 

[maniacmartin]

A more ambiguous question is regarding break of journey in case. If you break journey for a few hours, does this count as 1 or 2 journeys?

Using the diagram above, what if you started at A, and went to C and then left the station. Then, a few hours later, you return to the station and travel C to E.

Is this one journey? Can you then rely on 19c?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

A more ambiguous question is regarding break of journey in case. If you break journey for a few hours, does this count as 1 or 2 journeys?

Using the diagram above, what if you started at A, and went to C and then left the station. Then, a few hours later, you return to the station and travel C to E.

Is this one journey? Can you then rely on 19c?

I would suggest that it could be considered either way, possibly with the time gap between travel being a factor. I would also suggest that if the first part didn't actually happen then pretending it did, so that the condition could be used, is basically being "deliberately deceptive for financial gain", which, as it happens, is a very good description of a five letter word beginning with an f and ending with a d.

 

[maniacmartin]

On an ordinary SVR return part, a break of journey could potentially by 30 days. Would this be too long?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

On one ticket I don't think it makes a difference how you classify them.