Starting short, just after 09:30

[toffeedanish]

Hello,

For my semi-regular journey I've discovered it is cheapest to start and finish short using an Off Peak Day Return (which I think is perfectly acceptable?). I wish to make my journey as early in the day as I can at the cheapest price.

Does my ticket become valid at 09:30 (when off peak starts) at *my* station of origin, or does it only become valid on the first train it would have become possible to catch allowing for an 09:30 start from the origin shown on the ticket?

Thank you.

 

[bb21]

Depends on the restriction text.

What stations are involved? If you are unwilling to say it is not always possible to tell, sorry.

 

[richw]

It will normally be the time the train was scheduled to leave the ticketed origin, but depends on the restriction code

 

[toffeedanish]

Restriction is I1.

I don't think its a good idea to give the stations.

May I ask why the specifics are needed in this case? I don't doubt you bb21 - I just thought it would either always be valid or always not be?

Thanks again.

 

[PermitToTravel]

You just need to read the restriction code literally. In the case of I1 it's okay - trains timed to depart (any stop, as none was stated) after 0930.

Some restriction codes (e.g. LG) make reference to the times that a train arrives at or departs from a certain station.

 

[jon0844]

Restriction Code
I1

Applicable days
Mondays to Fridays

Outward Travel
Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30.

Return Travel
Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30.

 

[Mojo]

May I ask why the specifics are needed in this case? I don't doubt you bb21 - I just thought it would either always be valid or always not be?

It's not an issue in the case of I1, but there are many restriction codes where the time restrictions name specific stations. Look at code LC, for example.

 

[bb21]

Because if you don't know how to find the restriction code (and not knowing you well I can't really guess), then it would be tricky to say. Restriction text is written in different ways, some permitting starting short in the way you proposed, others don't.

In the case of Restriction I1, it is fine to do what you proposed in my opinion.

 

[richw]

How would you prove starting short? An RPI would surely look at starting from station x and that the train left there before 0930.

 

[bb21]

How would you prove starting short? An RPI would surely look at starting from station x and that the train left there before 0930.

It is not your job to prove that you started short.

If there were gates, the magstripe would hopefully have encoded the entry point properly, but other than that, there is not much you can do.

 

[toffeedanish]

Thank you bb21 and all.

In my case, doing my ticketed theoretical journey would involve changing trains at my actual origin, so I will definitely not have been on the particular train on which my ticket is first checked during peak time.

However in general terms, richw, hows about making yourself known to the conductor (presuming this is possible) on boarding to show that you haven't been on his train pre-0930? I take the point that this shouldn't be necessary, but may avoid hassle.

 

[bb21]

However in general terms, richw, hows about making yourself known to the conductor (presuming this is possible) on boarding to show that you haven't been on his train pre-0930? I take the point that this shouldn't be necessary, but may avoid hassle.

Can't say I have ever heard anyone do that. The guard might think you are a little barmy but I guess it cannot hurt.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Does my ticket become valid at 09:30 (when off peak starts) at *my* station of origin, or does it only become valid on the first train it would have become possible to catch allowing for an 09:30 start from the origin shown on the ticket?

Unfortunately, many of the Railway's regulations, conditions and restrictions are poorly worded, and lead to ambiguity, uncertainty, confusion and in some cases, contradictions. You are quite right to ask for clarification in this set of circumstances.

I'll guess that the original intention when drafting this particular ambiguity was to treat the train you're intending to catch as a 'peak' train. Presumably you've had the same thought yourself, which has led you to ask. But if that guess is correct, the actual restriction doesn't say so.

I'm inclined to agree with richw, bb21 and PermitToTravel that your use of the Off-Peak ticket starting short and starting after 9:30 is, technically, permissable. But I must caution you to be prepared for a challenge. Some people, quite understandably, will take the opposite interpretation. On some routes in particular, a more 'robust' approach to enforcement is taken, and consequently, I advise you only to use that ticket in such areas if you are willing to risk a few minutes delay while you are questioned, and the possibility of follow-up correspondence to reach an agreement.

Or in other words, my advice turns not of the precise wording of the restriction, but on your willingness to participate in a discussion, a discussion which will be as constructive or as confrontational as you and the other party chose at the moment of ticket inspection.

Again, I don't disagree with bb21 in asserting that it is not for you, the passenger, to provide the evidence that you boarded after that 9:30 threshold, but if you are travelling in one of the areas where enforcement is 'robust', then I will echo the advice of others that those who choose to be 'creative' in their travel in order to pay less for it, then they should be content to be questioned about it, and consider whether it might make for a better day to have some sort of evidence to demonstrate compliance with those ambiguous conditions.

 

[MikeWh]

Thank you DaveNewcastle for your very detailed advice covering all possibilities. If the OP is understandably reticent in the light of this advice then might I suggest writing to the TOC concerned and asking for a written confirmation of validity. Whilst not the most common travel pattern, B-C one way followed by C-A via B the other is often required and starting short on the outward leg will usually be the cheapest way of doing it.

 

[45107]

I fail to see how a ticket from A-C with a restriction of not valid before 0930 is valid for B-C on a service that requires departing A before 0930.

As many of you have stated in the past when using split tickets, for a journey from A-C with a split at B. The complete journey is A-C and the TOC is obliged to assist when connections are missed at B.
Why should a ticket A-C be valid from B to avoid a time restriction ? The stated journey on the ticket is A-C and not valid at that time.
No doubt someone will say that it is not explicitly disallowed so therefore it is valid

 

[talldave]

In some ways the "arriving at or after. .." restrictions are fairer, giving people all the way down the line equal opportunity to use the same train.

 

[bb21]

I fail to see how a ticket from A-C with a restriction of not valid before 0930 is valid for B-C on a service that requires departing A before 0930.

As many of you have stated in the past when using split tickets, for a journey from A-C with a split at B. The complete journey is A-C and the TOC is obliged to assist when connections are missed at B.
Why should a ticket A-C be valid from B to avoid a time restriction ? The stated journey on the ticket is A-C and not valid at that time.
No doubt someone will say that it is not explicitly disallowed so therefore it is valid

If starting short, then the journey is from the "intermediate" station (actual origin) to the destination, not the origin printed on the ticket.

 

[LowLevel]

While significantly open to interpretation, it's probably more open to precedent than most ticket inspectors would consider. I work trains that straddle the off peak boundary regularly and quite often sell off peak tickets from preceding stations to people I know joined the train at a later station at off peak time so that they can return to that station later in the day.

 

[furlong]

I fail to see how a ticket from A-C with a restriction of not valid before 0930 is valid for B-C on a service that requires departing A before 0930.

The Conditions of Carriage now explicitly allow you to "start ... a journey ... at any intermediate station".

 

[blakey1152]

Again without mentioning any stations (was about 7 years ago) - I was with my wife and we had a network railcard at the time.

With an off-peak return from Southeastern station at the coast.

We needed to get back earlier than anticipated because of an emergency and of course the ticket wasn't valid until 1000. I was told that as the train we wanted to leave on was after 0930 we could buy an off peak single for each of us from the origin station to the first station that the train stopped at after 1000 and our original tickets would be valid all the way to our destination from there.

Bought the tickets, Showed both tickets to the guard on the train and explained what we were doing and he was perfectly happy.

Not sure if it was technically allowed or not, but Southeastern at the time said it was fine!

Blakey

 

[talldave]

It would seem that it's valid, but the point of proof that the ticket was only used from station B could be a problem that would put most people off doing it.

I've got my own 09:30 conundrum but I'll start another thread for that.

 

[jon0844]

Again without mentioning any stations (was about 7 years ago) - I was with my wife and we had a network railcard at the time.

With an off-peak return from Southeastern station at the coast.

We needed to get back earlier than anticipated because of an emergency and of course the ticket wasn't valid until 1000. I was told that as the train we wanted to leave on was after 0930 we could buy an off peak single for each of us from the origin station to the first station that the train stopped at after 1000 and our original tickets would be valid all the way to our destination from there.

Bought the tickets, Showed both tickets to the guard on the train and explained what we were doing and he was perfectly happy.

Not sure if it was technically allowed or not, but Southeastern at the time said it was fine!

I occasionally used to buy an undiscounted off-peak from Hatfield to Potters Bar, along with a discounted Travelcard, so that I could travel on the 0955 train to London, leaving Potters Bar after 1000. I never actually got checked, but clearly it would be acceptable and I doubt any RPI would have had an issue.

Indeed, it would have only been an issue if I'd chosen to confuse matters by showing both tickets and saying something like 'I hope this is okay' rather than simply showing whatever ticket was valid at the time of being checked.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I occasionally used to buy an undiscounted off-peak from Hatfield to Potters Bar, along with a discounted Travelcard, so that I could travel on the 0955 train to London, leaving Potters Bar after 1000. I never actually got checked, but clearly it would be acceptable and I doubt any RPI would have had an issue.

Given that FCC attempted to Penalty Fare you when you had an undeniably valid combination of Travelcard Seasons, you appear to have too much faith in Great Northern's RPIs

 

[jon0844]

As I said, the safe way is to show the appropriate ticket and not let on you're trying to be clever.

Potters Bar does at least exist, unlike the mysterious gap between zones 3 and 4...!