Starting service with the front unit off the platform

[Taunton]

My recollection is that at Kings Cross the Eurostar sets could only use platform 1 or platform 6 which were the only platforms long enough.

You have to go back to WW2 for, in particular, the ECML overnight trains leaving Kings Cross, which were made up to sometimes well over 20 coaches, double-headed. The train would not only be beyond the platform end but right across the layout and the locos well inside Gasworks Tunnel. It would be platformed as say two 11-coach trains either side of an island platform, shortly before departure one, with the locos, would pull forward and propel back onto the other. Doing this in the wartime blackout with inside the tunnel full of smoke must have been an absolute challenge, let alone giving the Right Away. I think electric bells for communication were mounted on the tunnel walls.

 

[mister-sparky]

Caught a peak time 12 car 375 train from London Charing Cross a few nights ago, the front 1 or 2 carriages were off the end of the platform onto the bridge

 

[craigybagel]

In class 321 days the platforms at Braintree and Southminster were 8 cars but some peak hour trains were 12 cars. The GE class 321/4s 321438-448 had a rudimentary form of SDO and had to be the front and rear units in a 12 car formation.

As far as I can tell the Braintree platform has now been lengthened to take a 10 car class 720, but Southminster has not. RTT suggests that 0648 from Wickford forming 0737 up from Southminster is now the only 10 car train on the Southminster branch. Has anyone been to Southminster to see how it is done?

I'm sure I read at some point that those 12 car services also couldn't be run DOO - so conductors still needed to sign those branches even though most services were DOO.

 

[sportzbar]

One time I had a 4 car 158 not fully make it into platform 3 (I assume the driver just stopped a bit short) at Wigan North Western, so the back door was beyond the platform (where the fence is)
The guard opened every door except the back one manually with the emergency entrances, no clue how departure was done.

4 car 158s wont fit into the bay platform at Wigan North Western with the rear door being off the platform, although the train is behind the signal (just). Its one of the reasons that the Leeds - Wigan services changed to Wallgate. There are still some 158 operations that serve North Western although these now use the longer P1.

 

[py_megapixel]

If terminating a 9/10 car 80x at Didcot Parkway P4 which you aren’t permitted to do as per the operational restrictions of said train, not only do you have doors off the platform, you would be starting beyond the starting signal and need to gain permission from the signaller, despite this, over the last week many 9 cars have been reversed in P4….

When does an 80x terminate at Didcot at all?

 

[4COR]

Related, railsigns has an image (on: https://www.railsigns.uk/photos/p_repsig1.htm) of a red banner repeater at Stirling which repeated the semaphore signals controlling departures from the dock platform where the train was starting beyond - now historic. Presumably, much easier to apply that method or working with a physical frame rather than electric interlocking.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

4 car 158s wont fit into the bay platform at Wigan North Western with the rear door being off the platform, although the train is behind the signal (just). Its one of the reasons that the Leeds - Wigan services changed to Wallgate. There are still some 158 operations that serve North Western although these now use the longer P1.

Really? The whole reason for closing P2 was extending P3 to 4 carriages.

And if that was a problem why didn't they just regularly use P1, it was usually empty.

 

[Kite159]

When does an 80x terminate at Didcot at all?

Last week when Oxford was closed I would guess

 

[Failed Unit]

My recollection is that at Kings Cross the Eurostar sets could only use platform 1 or platform 6 which were the only platforms long enough.

I certainly recall the loco was off the platform. I am sure Cleethorpes when it had the HST had some of the set off the platform.

 

[py_megapixel]

Last week when Oxford was closed I would guess

Ah, I hadn't realised Oxford had been closed. Thanks!

 

[LickeyIncliner]

Fairly sure there were special arrangements when the East Coast HSTs went to Glasgow QS; similarly long trains at Kings Cross before the remodelling in the 70s.

At the other end of the station scale : as I recall Bromsgrove in the 1970s and 1980s, the platform could only accommodate two or three coaches, but the one weekday up train was a Peak plus at least five coaches

 

[stadler]

It has happened at the Oxted bay platform P3 before with a four coach 171 train. The bay platform P3 can only fit three 171 coaches. So the front coach is off the platform when starting.

 

[Magdalia]

I certainly recall the loco was off the platform.

Platforms 1 and 6 at Kings Cross had signals off the end of the platform. The platform 6 signal was on a stick, not a gantry, see here:

GNER HSTs, London Kings Cross

Two Great North Eastern Rail InterCity 125 High Speed Trains pass in the throat of London Kings Cross station, while English Welsh & Scottish Railway Class 47, 47744 "Royal Mail Cheltenham", stands in one of the sidings

www.flickr.com

Two Great North Eastern Rail InterCity 125 High Speed Trains pass in the throat of London Kings Cross station, while English Welsh & Scottish Railway Class 47, 47744 "Royal Mail Cheltenham", stands in one of the sidings

 

[Snow1964]

There are also some intermediate stations where a front unit can be off platform,
eg Kintbury towards London, so train doesn't stop on level crossing, the stop markers for longer trains are beyond the platform. Even 2x5car IETs do this.
The signal is before level crossing, so being able to see a signal isn't a problem as isn't one At the platform.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

My recollection is that at Kings Cross the Eurostar sets could only use platform 1 or platform 6 which were the only platforms long enough.

I have a memory of having to shuffle through the train for a couple of carriages to get off, probably at Leeds. But it was decades ago so not reliable...

 

[AdamWW]

I have a memory of having to shuffle through the train for a couple of carriages to get off, probably at Leeds. But it was decades ago so not reliable...

If my memory serves me correctly (and it was indeed a while ago), there were some intermediate calls between Leeds and London that had platforms shorter than the trains.
No SDO on a 373, so some of the doors were just set so they could never be opened from the inside.
So arriving at Leeds (for example) if you were at the wrong end, even though the train fitted into the platform you had to walk down to get off unless someone opened the door from the outside for you.

 

[Failed Unit]

If my memory serves me correctly (and it was indeed a while ago), there were some intermediate calls between Leeds and London that had platforms shorter than the trains.
No SDO on a 373, so some of the doors were just set so they could never be opened from the inside.
So arriving at Leeds (for example) if you were at the wrong end, even though the train fitted into the platform you had to walk down to get off unless someone opened the door from the outside for you.

Not sure if we are dragging this off topic, but indeed there were stops where the train was 2 long. I think the rear 2 doors were locked out as a result. Not sure how that worked at Kings Cross. Actually the new Eurostar sets don't fit properly at GareDuNord in a similar way, so staff members make sure that no-one is getting off at that door. The old Eurostars had the loco at that point on the platform so no issue.

 

[AdamWW]

Not sure if we are dragging this off topic, but indeed there were stops where the train was 2 long. I think the rear 2 doors were locked out as a result. Not sure how that worked at Kings Cross. Actually the new Eurostar sets don't fit properly at GareDuNord in a similar way, so staff members make sure that no-one is getting off at that door. The old Eurostars had the loco at that point on the platform so no issue.

Well the Gare du Nord one sounds very much on topic.
Selective door blocking. I like it!
I wonder if that method of operating would have been approved if it had been needed at the UK end.

 

[Falcon1200]

I am sure there were special signals that allowed the driver of a train sitting beyond them to see what it was displaying(Inverness and Perth might have had the same).

Glasgow Central had the same; Sometimes a loco-hauled formation would have the loco beyond the signal. Obviously the track circuits were arranged such that the Signaller could still set the route, and the signal be cleared.

 

[SteveyBee131]

If my memory serves me correctly (and it was indeed a while ago), there were some intermediate calls between Leeds and London that had platforms shorter than the trains.
No SDO on a 373, so some of the doors were just set so they could never be opened from the inside.
So arriving at Leeds (for example) if you were at the wrong end, even though the train fitted into the platform you had to walk down to get off unless someone opened the door from the outside for you.

Indeed, in the Doncastrian spotting days of my youth! I remember the (live, not automated!) announcements well: "... Would passengers for coaches A and B please board in coach C; would passengers for coaches T and V please board in coach S." I know it's not quite the subject of the thread, but I seem to remember them stopping ahead of the starting signal on platforms 1 and 8 at Doncaster.

 

[louis97]

despite this, over the last week many 9 cars have been reversed in P4….

Can't see any that have reversed in platform 4, 9 car trains that did start there were shunted via the West End from Platform 3.

 

[sportzbar]

Really? The whole reason for closing P2 was extending P3 to 4 carriages.

And if that was a problem why didn't they just regularly use P1, it was usually empty.

P3 can handle 4 car 150 units, but can't handle 4 car 158 units. The original plan had 3 car 195s operating LDS - WGN, but this later changed to 4 car 158s.

P1 is used frequently for some Liverpool services and is also used as a bypass loop so is actually preferable to keep it clear. The simplest solution was to change the terminating station to Wallgate as the service has a near 50 min layover now before returning to Leeds whereas before it was approx 10 - 15 min dwell.

 

[rower40]

Most (but not all) of the platforms at Edinburgh have this facility, known as "Standing-out". A train too long for the platform can arrive, with its rear not fully inside the platform starting signal. The platform starting signal can then be cleared, even though the (new) front of the train is beyond that signal. There are double-sided "OFF" indicators allowing a driver looking backwards out of a cabside window to see that an authority to proceed has been given.

The Signalling Plan states "Standing out facilities are provided on the following signals:..."; it is assumed that the reader knows what that means.

The Train Describer stepping is configured to use the occupation of the next track (i.e. the second one after the signal) to trigger the departure TD step in those cases.

It's rarely used, but it does provide a quicker (and safer) way of dealing with an incorrectly-routed over-length train, rather than authorising it to depart with no route set (and relying on the signaller keying the points appropriately for the train to then reach its next signal.)

 

[Deepgreen]

As far as I can see, there should be nothing to prevent it if; 1) there is no SPAD, and; 2) SDO is used.

 

[Surreytraveller]

It has happened at the Oxted bay platform P3 before with a four coach 171 train. The bay platform P3 can only fit three 171 coaches. So the front coach is off the platform when starting.

Used to happen with 6 car DEMUs back in the day when they used to run a two-hourly service on Sundays. They didn't want to let one unit out loose on its own, so ran six-cars

 

[Port Road]

Most (but not all) of the platforms at Edinburgh have this facility, known as "Standing-out". A train too long for the platform can arrive, with its rear not fully inside the platform starting signal. The platform starting signal can then be cleared, even though the (new) front of the train is beyond that signal. There are double-sided "OFF" indicators allowing a driver looking backwards out of a cabside window to see that an authority to proceed has been given.

The Signalling Plan states "Standing out facilities are provided on the following signals:..."; it is assumed that the reader knows what that means.

The Train Describer stepping is configured to use the occupation of the next track (i.e. the second one after the signal) to trigger the departure TD step in those cases.

It's rarely used, but it does provide a quicker (and safer) way of dealing with an incorrectly-routed over-length train, rather than authorising it to depart with no route set (and relying on the signaller keying the points appropriately for the train to then reach its next signal.)

I used this stand-out facility a few times at Edinburgh Waverley in the past. The main problem that could arise is that once you have cleared the signal the route will be locked forever i.e. no time-out; If the train doesn't move for whatever reason chaos ensues.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Fairly sure there were special arrangements when the East Coast HSTs went to Glasgow QS; similarly long trains at Kings Cross before the remodelling in the 70s.

Likewise at Lincoln St Marks, whose platforms could only take four cars, and the London-bound trains had to stop with the rear clear of the foot crossing which was the only access between plaforms (there was no footbridge or subway, because until 1966 nearly all services terminated there).

(and as can be seen here, trains in the other direction had to stop with the loco in the platform, meaning only the first three carriages were platformed - and one of those was a van!)

But these all involved a number of vehicles extending beyond the platform, but not an entire unit. Even with an entire unit beyond the paltform it would usually only really be a problem if there was no gangway between units.

 

[stadler]

As far as I can see, there should be nothing to prevent it if; 1) there is no SPAD, and; 2) SDO is used.

It depends on the rolling stock. Some classes use an SDO or ASDO which only works from the front. So it allows only the front x coaches to be released but it does not allow only the rear x coaches to be released. So in these cases it is not possible to start with the front of the train off the platform because the system can not keep the front carriages and doors locked. Also some classes use an SDO or ASDO which can not handle reversals where the driver leaves the cab and goes to the other end. So it can also depend a lot on the particular SDO or ASDO of that rolling stock class.

 

[norbitonflyer]

At Lincoln Central, in the days of semaphore and loco haulage, a long train on platform 6 (on which the photographer is standing in this view) would often stop with the loco off the platform end and beyond the fouling point of the points immediately beyond. (One regular Summer Saturday service from the East Coast to Manchester was a regular turn for double-headed class 25s) This fouling required the platform starter (in the foreground) to be cleared. But just beyond the points is a very busy level crossing, so a separate signal was required for that, which would not be cleared until the train was ready to start.

Somewhat overkill for the 153 in this picture!

 

[ajwffc]

West/Perth end of Dundee station this is D728 platform 2 but all other platforms have the same at that end (pictures taken while placing protection for a T3)