Starting late on AP ticket for "administration fee"

[Railjet]

From today's Daily Telegraph:

Forced to pay again for joining train down the line

I bought a return ticket from King's Cross to Newcastle on the East Coast Trains website for £104. On the return journey I decided to join the train at Darlington, 30 minutes south of Newcastle, as my parents live nearby. I have done this many times before.

When I arrived at Darlington station the new automatic barriers would not accept my ticket. A member of staff said the ticket could only be used from Newcastle. She said she could have changed the station on the ticket for an administration fee but as the train had already left Newcastle this was no longer possible.

I had to buy a new single ticket for £99 to gain access to a train I already had a confirmed seat on. The staff could see that it was a genuine mistake and that I was very upset.

Why couldn't they have just let me through the barrier?

Gill Charlton replies:
I too thought this couldn't be right, but East Coast Trains says that all advance-purchase tickets – regardless of train operator – stipulate that customers must start and finish their journey at the points named on their ticket. Breaking the journey or starting from an intermediate station is not allowed. East Coast says that these conditions are made clear on its website.

Before the installation of automatic barriers, kindly ticket inspectors on board would turn a blind eye – or simply not know that you had only occupied your seat since Darlington.

The rail watchdog Passenger Focus agrees that passengers are finding the fares system "too complicated and illogical", but there are no plans to do anything about it.

Does anyone know about this procedure? I've not heard of being able to change an AP ticket in this way, but maybe someone can offer some enlightenment.

 

[First class]

Break of journey
You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

You can't change the origin/destination...

Changing the time or date of travel
Changes to time or date of travel must be arranged before departure of the first reserved train printed on the ticket, after which the ticket has no value and a new one must be purchased. You will need to present the ticket(s) and reservation(s) when you request a change.
Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If you board a train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must be purchased. Depending on the Train Company you are travelling with, you may be liable to a Penalty Fare if you board the train with an invalid ticket.
The origin, destination and Train Company or route shown on the ticket(s) must remain the same.
The difference between the price paid and cost of the next suitable fare for your journey is payable, plus a £10 administration fee per person, per single ticket for each change to a journey. If you change to a train on which a cheaper fare is available, the difference will not be refunded.

 

[tannedfrog]

To get through the barrier, the person should have bought a ticket to the next stop not a new ticket for £99 for the full journey!

 

[142094]

I don't see the problem, clearly states what the conditions are for advance tickets. Also says that "I have done this many times before.", which doesn't make a difference as sometimes you'd not get your ticket checked until after Darlington anyway before the barriers were put in place.

 

[455driver]

To get through the barrier, the person should have bought a ticket to the next stop not a new ticket for £99 for the full journey!

Nope, as they have not got on at the correct station the advanced ticket has no validity.
If I was sat in the seat that she had not taken up at Newcastle I wouldnt move as the seat is not reserved from Darlington.

If she wanted a flexible ticket she should have bought one, simples!

 

[142094]

If I was sat in the seat that she had not taken up at Newcastle I wouldnt move as the seat is not reserved from Darlington.

Exactly, however it would have been easy to buy a ticket to Dinsdale and then got on the EC train, and I bet 9 out of 10 times no-one would notice. But I guess not many people would know this anyway.

 

[tannedfrog]

The other thing is that I thought advance purchase tickets were all singles?
So the person could have bought a single to Newcastle and a single from Darlington.

However the Super Off Peak Return London to Newcastle is £104.60 and I suspect this is the ticket that the person had. Therefore would not a break of journey have been OK? This would explain why the staff member didn't feel able to change the ticket as the train had left - in fact it was only the seat reservation that could not be amended.

 

[Mojo]

However the Super Off Peak Return London to Newcastle is £104.60 and I suspect this is the ticket that the person had. Therefore would not a break of journey have been OK? This would explain why the staff member didn't feel able to change the ticket as the train had left - in fact it was only the seat reservation that could not be amended.

I agree with this also; I was looking at Avantix just now and there is a £104.60 SSR for which break of journey is permitted on both legs and it would seem to me most likely the person bought this, so the person should apply for compensation.

 

[323235]

I agree with this also; I was looking at Avantix just now and there is a £104.60 SSR for which break of journey is permitted on both legs and it would seem to me most likely the person bought this, so the person should apply for compensation.

Avantix also lists a £52 Advance Single, 2 of which would also cost £104.

 

[Failed Unit]

I know it is not the same thing, but if I use the 0735 Market Rasen service to heading North, I have been allowed a break of journey at Lincoln (the connection is over 1 hour until the 0918 service to Doncaster arrives). I am not sure if the staff at Lincoln are been kind so I can go and get some breakfast, but there is no way of telling when I return through the barrier if I started the journey at Lincoln or Market Rasen.

I know no break of journey is allowed on AP's but if just got me thinking when you have a long connection time, is it acceptable to leave the station as long as you are back in time for your next available connection? (which strickly speaking is not a break).

I know that if I book an AP ticket which requires and overnight wait I am not expected to stay in the station.

Off point a little but got me thinking.

 

[General Zod]

I was in the very same situation during the last Bank Holiday Weekend. The ticket I had was a Kings Cross - Eaglescliffe Super Saver Off Peak Return priced at £103.50. I got dropped off at Darlington as the Eaglescliffe - Darlington Pacer was running late and I may have missed the London bound connection. As expected my ticket was not accepted by the ticket gates but on showing it to the barrier staff I was let through with no questions asked.

Z

 

[Failed Unit]

I was in the very same situation during the last Bank Holiday Weekend. The ticket I had was a Kings Cross - Eaglescliffe Super Saver Off Peak Return priced at £103.50. I got dropped off at Darlington as the Eaglescliffe - Darlington Pacer was running late and I may have missed the London bound connection. As expected my ticket was not accepted by the ticket gates but on showing it to the barrier staff I was let through with no questions asked.

Z

Saved by the fact it was not an advanced, I don't think they are as bothered about regional connections. I am sure you wouldn't be hammered at Newark if the unit from Lincoln was going to miss the connection, but you never know! If you joined at Grantham they would probably tell you to take a hike!

 

[General Zod]

Saved by the fact it was not an advanced

Absolutely ! I don't think I would have tried it with an Advance ; there are too many horror stories out there ! But then again if I did miss the London connection whilst travelling on the Advance I'm not sure how confident I'd be on East Coast endorsing my ticket for the next available southbound train. How sympathetic and lenient are East Coast in that sort of situation ?

 

[route:oxford]

Nope, as they have not got on at the correct station the advanced ticket has no validity.

Hmm... I've been known to get an advance purchase ticket from Wolverhampton to Glasgow, but have boarded at Birmingham New Street as I had a "normal" ticket between Oxford & Wolverhampton. I didn't disembark at Wolverhampton to get back on again... Does this make my ticket invalid?

Similarily I've booked a First Advance ticket from Glagow Queen Street to London Kings Cross on a Sunday morning (change at Stirling for the Highland Chieftan), but boarded the Chieftan at Dunblane using a single to Stirling. Again I didn't disembark and re-embark at Stirling. Once again invalid?

If I was sat in the seat that she had not taken up at Newcastle I wouldnt move as the seat is not reserved from Darlington.

If I'd boarded at Darlington (using a short local journey ticket to get through the barriers), I would simply have sat on the nearest free seat and told the on train staff that someone had already sat in my seat and I didn't want to cause a scene.

 

[MikeWh]

I'm no expert but the difference between your scenarios and the OP is that you are joining earlier. You are on the train for the duration of the advance ticket. It doesn't specify how you get to the start station so there can't be anything wrong with already being on the train, as long as you have a ticket for the extra bit of course.

 

[yorkie]

Guards tend to display common sense. Barrier staff less so. However any cheap ticket from that station will work barriers, so sometimes it is worth buying an additional low value ticket to get past the barrier staff without an argument over whether a ticket - that you know the guard will be happy to accept - is valid or not.

If the person in the article really did get AP singles that cost as much as a walk-on fare, that is scandalous that the railway has extraced money in that way. AP fares that cost almost as much as (in some cases can cost more than) walk-on tickets should be abolished.

 

[455driver]

Hmm... I've been known to get an advance purchase ticket from Wolverhampton to Glasgow, but have boarded at Birmingham New Street as I had a "normal" ticket between Oxford & Wolverhampton.

Totally different scenario as you are getting on the train early (with a valid ticket), I dont see the relevance of your post but hey carry on.

 

[rail-britain]

Seems quite fair
Purchase a single Darlington to Eaglescliffe, then get on the train you are supposed to be on

I ran into a similar issue on a Glasgow - Preston - Glasgow return, with two Advance Singles
The southbound service was running so late I would have missed it at Preston
After consulting with the Train Manager, I suggested getting off at Lancaster to put me back on to the correct service
However since he would probably be working that next Glasgow northbound service he allowed me to travel on that next service from Preston (which I shouldn't have been on)

 

[142094]

£1.40 for a single to North Road, just to save you a couple of quid instead of getting the Eaglescliffe ticket.

 

[sheff1]

If I was sat in the seat that she had not taken up at Newcastle I wouldnt move as the seat is not reserved from Darlington.

Interesting. What about if she indeed did have a Super Off Peak which is perfectly valid to board short ?

As a general point, what is the ruling on how long someone has to take up their reserved seat ? What if they wanted a drink in the bar when they boarded (at the correct stop) and went down to their seat after the first stop ?

 

[Railjet]

Interesting. What about if she indeed did have a Super Off Peak which is perfectly valid to board short ?

As a general point, what is the ruling on how long someone has to take up their reserved seat ? What if they wanted a drink in the bar when they boarded (at the correct stop) and went down to their seat after the first stop ?

I'm not sure about the UK, but on the continent you have 15 minutes to claim your reserved seat, and then, if not occupied, it is deemed to be free.

 

[nedchester]

This all highlights the complicated nature of the ticketing system in this country which is designed to catch the unsuspecting passenger out. A rule which states that if you have booked on a train from A to B but can't board at an intermediate station C is ridiculous.

Personally I'd have got a ticket to North Road to gain access to the platform!!!

The ticketing system on this countries railways needs sorting big style.

 

[MCR247]

Interesting. What about if she indeed did have a Super Off Peak which is perfectly valid to board short ?

As a general point, what is the ruling on how long someone has to take up their reserved seat ? What if they wanted a drink in the bar when they boarded (at the correct stop) and went down to their seat after the first stop ?

I wouldn't have moved, the ticket is valid, the reservation hasn't been used from Newcastle!

 

[route:oxford]

If a passenger boarded at Newcastle with an AP ticket, but went straight to the restaurant car to enjoy a good leisurely breakfast/lunch/dinner taking an hour or so, before attempting to return to their reserved seat - only to find that the seat had been taken by a passenger boarding at say Darlington...

What are we saying should happen?

 

[Failed Unit]

If a passenger boarded at Newcastle with an AP ticket, but went straight to the restaurant car to enjoy a good leisurely breakfast/lunch/dinner taking an hour or so, before attempting to return to their reserved seat - only to find that the seat had been taken by a passenger boarding at say Darlington...

What are we saying should happen?

In the days when you had resturants on east coast i would have placed my jacket and bag on the seat. That way at least it looked occupied. However if you get on later down the line you can't. "mark your territory"

 

[clagmonster]

Morally, I believe that a Newcastle-Kings Cross advance single should be accepted for travel from Darlington as the passenger has received less service than they paid for.

However, I believe that this is not legally allowed. The conditions of carriage state:
"16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you
want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to
some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant
Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

The conditions for advance tickets, as published on the East Coast website state:
"3.You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station except to change to/from appropriate connecting trains where these are shown on your ticket(s) or other official itinerary."
http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/travel-i...nformation/Ticket-Sales-Terms-and-Conditions/

The passenger purchased from the East Coast website, so had to tick a box confirming they accepted these conditions, so I think this is fairly clear cut.

 

[route:oxford]

In the days when you had resturants on east coast i would have placed my jacket and bag on the seat. That way at least it looked occupied. However if you get on later down the line you can't. "mark your territory"

Have the restaurant cars been withdrawn now? I knew that there had been a steady reduction, but last time I looked at the EC timetable, there were still a few left.

Last time I travelled on EC passengers were encouraged to keep their bags and personal belongings with them at all times...

 

[Helvellyn]

This all highlights the complicated nature of the ticketing system in this country which is designed to catch the unsuspecting passenger out. A rule which states that if you have booked on a train from A to B but can't board at an intermediate station C is ridiculous.

If the conditions of the ticket state that is valid only from A to B, with no break of journey (including starting/finishing short) then why is that ridiculous? The purpose of Advance Purchase fares is that the passenger is booking in advance for a journey they know they are going to make. For that they (in the majority of cases) pay a low fare, get a reserved seat and should be able to make that planned journey quite comfortably.

The passenger in the article the OP used should have been booking a Darlington to King's Cross AP, especially if they are making that journey on a regular basis instead of from Newcastle!

 

[Failed Unit]

Have the restaurant cars been withdrawn now? I knew that there had been a steady reduction, but last time I looked at the EC timetable, there were still a few left.

Last time I travelled on EC passengers were encouraged to keep their bags and personal belongings with them at all times...

Very few. If you live on the Leeds route very rare.

I leave things I don't really care about losing.

Going north will often wait until York before leaving dining area as many seats free afterwards. As long as you ask the catering crew are ok with this.

 

[nedchester]

If the conditions of the ticket state that is valid only from A to B, with no break of journey (including starting/finishing short) then why is that ridiculous? The purpose of Advance Purchase fares is that the passenger is booking in advance for a journey they know they are going to make. For that they (in the majority of cases) pay a low fare, get a reserved seat and should be able to make that planned journey quite comfortably.

The passenger in the article the OP used should have been booking a Darlington to King's Cross AP, especially if they are making that journey on a regular basis instead of from Newcastle!

The problem is that the conditions are so complicated you that it is very easy to fall foul of the 'rules'. The railway companies know this and exploit unsuspecting passengers.