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Richardr

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I'd booked a ticket from Birmingham New Street to St Albans City yesterday evening. The itinerary given was the 21:21 from Birmingham arriving at Euston 23:23 and then a "London Undergrnd Zone 1-2 to St Albans City". Whilst the first ticket was dated 24th August, the second was dated 25th August, which I guess it would have technically been at St Pancras, but not at the time I would have had to enter the tube station at Euston.

[as it happens the previous London train was 40 minutes late at Birmingham New Street and I got that so I arrived at Euston about half an hour early].

I would always walk from Euston to St Pancras, but at what time would a ticket dated the next day work on the underground, and if not before midnight I wouldn't have been able to use it, and at what time would it have worked at St Pancras Thameslink?

Given a Saturday ticket would have worked through to 4:30am should I not have been issued that?

It failed to work at St Pancras so I ended up paying for that journey rather than wait until midnight [or whenever they open the gates if earlier. :D]
 
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Richardr said:
I would always walk from Euston to St Pancras,
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In which case you can avoid paying for the underground when using the forum site by selecting the "Let me use Oyster/contactless to travel cross-London" option.
 
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OscarH

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Richardr said:
I'd booked a ticket from Birmingham New Street to St Albans City yesterday evening. The itinerary given was the 21:21 from Birmingham arriving at Euston 23:23 and then a "London Undergrnd Zone 1-2 to St Albans City". Whilst the first ticket was dated 24th August, the second was dated 25th August, which I guess it would have technically been at St Pancras, but not at the time I would have had to enter the tube station at Euston.

[as it happens the previous London train was 40 minutes late at Birmingham New Street and I got that so I arrived at Euston about half an hour early].

I would always walk from Euston to St Pancras, but at what time would a ticket dated the next day work on the underground, and if not before midnight I wouldn't have been able to use it, and at what time would it have worked at St Pancras Thameslink?

Given a Saturday ticket would have worked through to 4:30am should I not have been issued that?

It failed to work at St Pancras so I ended up paying for that journey rather than wait until midnight [or whenever they open the gates if earlier. :D]
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Generally if the first segment on which the ticket is used starts after midnight it's standard to issue a ticket for the new day, not the old one.

However, in your case the tube leg "started" at 23:38 (your arrival time + 15 minutes). So in your case the ticket should have been dated the 24th - the journey planner correctly suggested this, and if you had an eTicket (obviously not possible on the tube, but if it was) it would have been correct. The issue here boils down to a limitation in the ticket-on-departure system used for collecting tickets - it doesn't actually collect a ticket start date from the retailer, instead inferring it from the departure time of the first leg*. However, the system only cares about timetabled legs, and is explicit about not including tube legs, so the time used is that of your leg from St Pancras, which is after midnight.

I suspect this is just a case that no one has thought about the effects on London Underground Zone X tickets across the midnight boundary, and there's an obvious change which would fix this and not break things. I've raised a ticket to discuss this amongst ourselves, and possibly with RDG on Tuesday.

Appreciate that's a bit technical, but I hope it helps explain it. Thanks for opening the thread, it's a fun edge case.

* if your journey has no legs, eg buying an open ticket, there's a separate bodge, but that's not relevant here
 
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Richardr

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OscarH said:
Generally if the first segment on which the ticket is used starts after midnight it's standard to issue a ticket for the new day, not the old one.

However, in your case the tube leg "started" at 23:38 (your arrival time + 15 minutes). So in your case the ticket should have been dated the 24th - the journey planner correctly suggested this, and if you had an eTicket (obviously not possible on the tube, but if it was) it would have been correct. The issue here boils down to a limitation in the ticket-on-departure system used for collecting tickets - it doesn't actually collect a ticket start date from the retailer, instead inferring it from the departure time of the first leg*. However, the system only cares about timetabled legs, and is explicit about not including tube legs, so the time used is that of your leg from St Pancras, which is after midnight.

I suspect this is just a case that no one has thought about the effects on London Underground Zone X tickets across the midnight boundary, and there's an obvious change which would fix this and not break things. I've raised a ticket to discuss this amongst ourselves, and possibly with RDG on Tuesday.

Appreciate that's a bit technical, but I hope it helps explain it. Thanks for opening the thread, it's a fun edge case.

* if your journey has no legs, eg buying an open ticket, there's a separate bodge, but that's not relevant here
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Thanks a lot for a very clear explanation which makes full sense in terms of systems, but of course not logic.

A couple of points worth mentioning:

  1. it means my itinerary was impossible - by the time I could get there by tube starting after midnight I would miss the Thameslink train. What's more, there are plenty of longer underground trips between mainline stations that would be even more difficult, and at least there are plenty of Thameslink trains to St Albans relative to most lines; and
  2. Issuing a ticket for the following day for any time from midnight considerably reduces flexibility. Had I have been on the right train into Euston and that was on time, I would have had to let at least two trains from St Pancras to St Albans just before midnight to go because of the buffer within the system.

Adam Williams said:
What was the amount you paid out due to this, £8.90?
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Yes, albeit with a senior railcard, which made it £6:25.
 
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yorkie

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Thanks for reporting this; as others have said, the itinerary was possible and the matter can be looked at in more detail with the relevant parties.
Richardr said:
It failed to work at St Pancras so I ended up paying for that journey rather than wait until midnight [or whenever they open the gates if earlier. :D]
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Did staff refuse to let you through? If so, this lack of pragamtism from LU staff is disappointing, but not surprising, and is in line with numerous experiences of LU gateline staff, sadly.

Incidentally, the best way to get from Euston to St Pancras is probably to walk, however while I would have no qualms about doing so at any time, I can understand why some people may not want to do so at that time of night.
 
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Richardr

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Yes - I have always walked from Euston to St Pancras including on this occasion - what's more it takes you to the station entrance by the Thameslink barriers.

I'm sure someone can give the answer, but I suspect walking from the train to the underground at Euston and then the underground to the Thameslink platforms at St Pancras involves a not too dissimilar amount of walking.
 
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