Standedge tunnels

[CosherB]

I recently enjoyed a walk over the moors Diggle to Marsden and back via the old canal horse tracks, turnpikes, and roman road. Reading up on the tunnels (1 canal tunnel, 2 disused single rail tunnels, and the current double track rail tunnel) it seems Netwrork Rail are considering re-opening the two single rail tunnels.

Is this true? Is the railway 4-track up to both ends of the tunnel so the current double track tunnel becomes a bottleneck? If not, ther doesn't seem much point in re-opening and maintaining the two single track tunnels.

And - if they are usuable rail tunnels, why were they closed and replaced (at great cost) by the current double track tunnel?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I recently enjoyed a walk over the moors Diggle to Marsden and back via the old canal horse tracks, turnpikes, and roman road. Reading up on the tunnels (1 canal tunnel, 2 disused single rail tunnels, and the current double track rail tunnel) it seems Netwrork Rail are considering re-opening the two single rail tunnels.

Is this true? Is the railway 4-track up to both ends of the tunnel so the current double track tunnel becomes a bottleneck? If not, ther doesn't seem much point in re-opening and maintaining the two single track tunnels.

And - if they are usuable rail tunnels, why were they closed and replaced (at great cost) by the current double track tunnel?

They need to reopen - you could put Northern stuff in there, where they would get overtaken by much faster TPE services.

 

[tbtc]

There was a thread on this a while ago where the point was made that there is scope for four track sections on the line *beyond* the tunnel, but that this would mean a slower journey as the current two tracks take the best alignment on the trackbed (but, squeezing four lines in would slew the track)

 

[yorksrob]

There's largely quadruple track formation between Huddersfield and Standedge which contains three tracks to beyond Marsden, so that wouldn't be too difficult. On the other side of the tunnel, the other two tracks deviated away from the mainline before rejoining at Stalybridge, so I'm not sure how much of that trackbed is left. I think I read somewhere that there's a viaduct missing near Stalybridge.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Yes, the subject was discussed recently.
(I remember it well, with some embarassment, for an error of memory in my own post on there!)

This is the thread.
There's some interesting information there.

 

[yorkie]

Is this true? Is the railway 4-track up to both ends of the tunnel so the current double track tunnel becomes a bottleneck? If not, ther doesn't seem much point in re-opening and maintaining the two single track tunnels.

Also bear in mind the rather long length of the tunnels, and this means a long section. It's not just the fact it's only 2 tracks that make it a bottleneck (Westbound NT services are often looped at Marsden station) but the fact the signal sections are so long. Increase capacity here and you increase capacity on the whole line.

 

[furryfeet]

Have railtrack put a definite timescale on re-opening one or both of the southern bores, or is this still an "aspiration" depending on whether budgets are slashed by the coalition ?

Is there a likely-hood of getting a grant to help since this would "gauge-enhance" the standedge route for container traffic, one of the benefits that railtrack identified in the 1990's.

 

[Ploughman]

1980s the section from Marsden to Huddersfield was dequadrified and the best alignment was chosen to fit the remaining two tracks, with these tracks moving from side to side of the formation.
This was to increase line speed, any reversion back to 4 track may have the effect of imposing speed restrictions.

 

[PhilipW]

The prosal to re-open the 2 disused tunnels is part of the "Northern Hub" project. Your guess is as good as mine as to when/whether this will be done in the current economic climate.

The quadrupling proposal is mainly for the tunnels with just a bit on either side. Diggle was mentioned as one end point.

The propsal gives flexibily and allows fast trains to overtake both slow trains and freight. I understand also the lines will be redesgnated so the two inner (geographically) become the fast and the two outer the slower. I will have to check the maps and layouts but I think the existing 1894 double tunnel is the most northerly and will therefore carry the eatbound slow and fast lines. So a fast train could overtake a slow train in the tunnel. Interesting.

 

[CosherB]

Indeed the double track tunnel is the most northerly, followed by the canal tunnel, followed by the 2 single track tunnels.

Many thanks to all for the info here. I didn't realise the single track tunnels had been in use so recently as the 80s.

 

[Clip]

Have railtrack put a definite timescale on re-opening one or both of the southern bores, or is this still an "aspiration" depending on whether budgets are slashed by the coalition ?

Is there a likely-hood of getting a grant to help since this would "gauge-enhance" the standedge route for container traffic, one of the benefits that railtrack identified in the 1990's.

Who?



.

 

[9K43]

When there are engineering trains working in Standage Tunnel the traincrew relief use the Nichoson Bore to drive a vehicle through.
When you get near to the worksite, someone gets out of the van, walks over the Canal Tunnel and has a look for the trains.
The Canal tunnel runs at alower level than the rail tunnels.
I have spent many long hours in these tunnels on relaying trains, with Class 56 locomotives which threw out more smoke 10 steam trains put together.
To walk from the Marsden end to Diggle takes at least 1 hour.
The per way have a nasty habit of taking manhole cover off the very deep drains.
Some years ago a Huddersfield Platelayer went into Standage Tunnel alone in a vehicle, as he was crossing the canal, he fell into it. He was there very long time.
This lads wife got worried as her husband had not got home from work after many hours.
The Supervisor went into the tunnel and found his van, and also the man, who had spent a long time in the water of the canal tunnel.
The moral to this is, when you are working in such conditions, you have someone with you, and your manager knows where you are and what you are doing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I was once working a jetting train in Standage, it was hauled by a class 31.
We were right in the middle of this tunnel, where there is access to the other 3 tunnels via a big vaulted archway.
The railwaymen call this The Cathedral, as it is like a church.
Me and the secondman went into the other 2 rail tunnels to marvel at the craftsman ship on those men who built these tunnels.
The 2 single lines tunnels were opened in 1842 and 1865.
The engineers were Mr Nelson (1842 and Mr Nicholson 1865)
I looked at archways in these tunnels and they were perfectly finished. The only light these lads had was candle power, and a hammer and chisel.
As we were mooching about we found a hammer with a broken shaft, which must have been lost in the construction.
It was also said that Black Magic had been performed in one of these tunnels.
As hard as we looked, I did not see any nubile you ladies dancing about, only the choking clag from an old class31.

 

[ST PADDY]

why reopen the single bore tunnels to just be a loop when one alrady exsists from Marsden to the tunnel entrance, admittadly only single track.
There is plenty of track bed to quadruple from Huddersfield first before needing to turn diggle into a bottle neck.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
the track was slewd side to side for the best cost/per volume of traffic at the time, this has now risen so putting four tracks back and maitaining the current or future speeds by canting the track would be worth the investment.

 

[PhilipW]

Good point, St Paddy. I don't know that I can answer it entirely satisfactorily.

The tunnel itself is just over 3 miles long. So with a little quadrupling on either side, the proposal is that there will be nearly 5 miles of quad tracking. This will make it a proper dynamic loop allowing quite a bit a flexibility in allowing one train to overtake another depending how far apart the trains were to start with.

Perhaps there are other places on the line where are are possibilities for 5 miles worth of quadrupling away from the tunnel; others are probably better placed to answer that than me. I would guess the distance from Marsden to Huddersfield is not much more than 5 miles, so if it was there it would be the whole distance.

If the tunnels are on a slope, then there are definate advantages to be able to overtake slow moving trains on the up slope.

 

[9K43]

Good point, St Paddy. I don't know that I can answer it entirely satisfactorily.

The tunnel itself is just over 3 miles long. So with a little quadrupling on either side, the proposal is that there will be nearly 5 miles of quad tracking. This will make it a proper dynamic loop allowing quite a bit a flexibility in allowing one train to overtake another depending how far apart the trains were to start with.

Perhaps there are other places on the line where are are possibilities for 5 miles worth of quadrupling away from the tunnel; others are probably better placed to answer that than me. I would guess the distance from Marsden to Huddersfield is not much more than 5 miles, so if it was there it would be the whole distance.

If the tunnels are on a slope, then there are definate advantages to be able to overtake slow moving trains on the up slope.

In the double track tunnel at the western end(Diggle)
there were water troughs just inside the western portal.
These drained into the canal tunnel.
The road at that end had to be level.
The only regulation that can be done is at Huddersfield Station, the loop at Marsden on the up and the loop at Diggle (down Road.)
I have been held many times at Stalybridge waiting for the density of traffic to ease.
What got me was the train was booked at 60mph, and you could be held at Stalybridge or Diggle for 35 mins.
If they wernt that windy the goods train could have been 35 miles away.

 

[Snapper]

Some views of the tunnel ends here. This is the Marsden end:

http://www.paulbigland.fotopic.net/p48343064.html

http://www.paulbigland.fotopic.net/p62590746.html

http://www.paulbigland.fotopic.net/p60853569.html

http://www.paulbigland.fotopic.net/p63438605.html

Diggle end:

http://www.paulbigland.fotopic.net/p55254398.html

http://www.paulbigland.fotopic.net/p55254393.html

 

[Ploughman]

Some years ago a Huddersfield Platelayer went into Standage Tunnel alone in a vehicle, as he was crossing the canal, he fell into it. He was there very long time.
This lads wife got worried as her husband had not got home from work after many hours.
The Supervisor went into the tunnel and found his van, and also the man, who had spent a long time in the water of the canal tunnel.

It was also said that Black Magic had been performed in one of these tunnels.
As hard as we looked, I did not see any nubile you ladies dancing about, only the choking clag from an old class31.

The man concerned was Mick Anderson and he fell in when crossing the canal bridge between the tunnels because the decking was rotten.

They knew where he was when the search began because his van was parked engine running and lights on in the access bore.

As for the witchcraft there is a so called Black Alter in the mid point chamber in the old bores. This is a large area where it is possible to cross from one bore to another and return back to either end without going all the way through. It gets a bit spooky in there on Halloween as that is the time of the year when most major works get carried out in the tunnel.

 

[Bevan Price]

There's largely quadruple track formation between Huddersfield and Standedge which contains three tracks to beyond Marsden, so that wouldn't be too difficult. On the other side of the tunnel, the other two tracks deviated away from the mainline before rejoining at Stalybridge, so I'm not sure how much of that trackbed is left. I think I read somewhere that there's a viaduct missing near Stalybridge.

Greenfield Viaduct (on the Micklehirst loop) was demolished after the line closed. It carried that line above the main road through Greenfield (village, not the still open station
, which is located near the north end of that road.), and it would be very expensive to replace. Elsewhere, apart removal of some short bridges, and lots of vegetation to clear, I think there are few notable obstructions on the trackbed of the Micklehurst line.

Incidentally, the former station houses at Uppermill, Micklehurst & possibly Friezland still exist (in private occupation).

Bevan

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Some views of the tunnel ends here. This is the Marsden end:

http://www.paulbigland.fotopic.net/p48343064.html

Quite a good photo, two things:

1) Is the white path kind of thing to the left where the old tunnels went off?
2) That's a pretty good water feature overhead Would that have to go with OHLE?

 

[9K43]

The man concerned was Mick Anderson and he fell in when crossing the canal bridge between the tunnels because the decking was rotten.

They knew where he was when the search began because his van was parked engine running and lights on in the access bore.

As for the witchcraft there is a so called Black Alter in the mid point chamber in the old bores. This is a large area where it is possible to cross from one bore to another and return back to either end without going all the way through. It gets a bit spooky in there on Halloween as that is the time of the year when most major works get carried out in the tunnel.

I know Mick very well, he was on the PWay at Huddersfield when I started on the railway.
When I went to the Mill we did all the slewing upto Marsden, and dropped thousands of tones of stone up and down. We had a session of working the Pointing Train up the Pensitone Line and Standage (Denby Dale Tunnel, Brockholes, the tunnels round Huddersfield Station , the list is endless.

 

[PhilipW]

In the article on the Northern Hub in today's 'Rail' magazine (22 Sept), it confrms that 4-tracking is proposed between Diggle and Marsden. Someone else better that I can state exactly what distance that would be, but I would guess at 5 miles.

It also confirmed that there is a proposal to add a passing loop at Dewsbury, though it did not state in which direction.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

In the article on the Northern Hub in today's 'Rail' magazine (22 Sept), it confrms that 4-tracking is proposed between Diggle and Marsden. Someone else better that I can state exactly what distance that would be, but I would guess at 5 miles.

It also confirmed that there is a proposal to add a passing loop at Dewsbury, though it did not state in which direction.

Dewsbury already has 3 lines through it. The centre line is IIRC for fast Leeds bound services so a 4th line will make loops in both directions

 

[PhilipW]

Enclose an article from the Huddersfield Examiner
http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/loca...an-to-re-open-pennine-tunnels-86081-27315026/

 

[9K43]

Here we are again, The 2 single line bores at Marsden, had track in them and it connected to the Micklehirst Loop.
Some joker removed all the track in those tunnels to save money.
Now some person wants to open them up again, and spend £million in doing so.
Why don't we put trolley buses / trams back in Huddersfield, and while we are at it open all the closed pits, so we are not importing coal from all over the world.

 

[ST PADDY]

there was recently an article in the Huddersfield examiner saying that the reopening of the twin bores of standage tunnel would elimanate this historic bottle neck, problem is the only historic bottle neck on this route has been Stalybridge which will still remain even if the line from diggle to Huddersfield is quadrupled and the Micklehurts line reopened.