standedge tunnels and mobile phone signal

[JohnB57]

Whether they would find the expense of putting in a mobile phone system worthwhile is something I'd be interested to find out.

I don't think there's any way that the astronomical cost of what is a fairly specialist system will be justifiable, especially for just eighteen boats per week, two thirds of the year.

Apart from the complications specific to the tunnel itself, it would mean five and a half kilometres of leaky feeder and probably twenty to thirty repeater units, all of which would need power.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

mobile phones working through the tunnel has only occured within the last 2-3 years. i still think its connected with installation of gsm-r, certainly messoom talk suggests this is indeed the case. theres still a lot of the network to be installed before it i up and running, tho it is scheduled to be introduced this year. once we get the training and briefs on the system ill see if i can find out the truth.

it could simply be a conveniently placed mobile phone mast near diggle that just happens to penetrate the tunnel. illl take another look around next time i am though in daylight, see if i can discount that theory! I'm well intrigued now!!!

 

[JohnB57]

I'm intrigued too but I can't understand how it would be connected with a separate system that doesn't work on the same frequencies and isn't in use anyway. Having said that, there is a mast, which I assume to be for GSM-R, on the left of the line heading west about 340 metres to the Greenfield side the tunnel. This is just visible on Street View from the Station Road overbridge and could be located well enough to provide coverage through part of the tunnel.

I've looked at the coverage maps of the four main networks and only O2 claims complete coverage in Diggle, but their mast is way up on the A62 out of site of the tunnel entrance.

The other issue is that even if your handset registers a signal, it doesn't mean you can make a call with it as its output power is much lower than the base station's.

As you say, intrguing.

 

[68000]

This will have nothing to do with GSM-R. No public mobile operator is using Network Rail GSM-R infrastructure. In fact, public operator interference from 3G & 4G close to the GSM-R bands is playing havoc with the GSM-R cab radio system when that radio travels to and from areas of coverage

GSM-R is planned to be introduced in those tunnels later this year

 

[JohnB57]

This will have nothing to do with GSM-R. No public mobile operator is using Network Rail GSM-R infrastructure. In fact, public operator interference from 3G & 4G close to the GSM-R bands is playing havoc with the GSM-R cab radio system when that radio travels to and from areas of coverage

GSM-R is planned to be introduced in those tunnels later this year

As far as I'm aware, GSM-R is on 876-880mhz and 921-925mhz, adjacent to GSM 900/2G frequencies. In the UK, 3G and 4G networks currently operate in different bands higher up the spectrum.

I'm surprised that they're experiencing problems from anything though. Modern radios are pretty much immune from that sort of issue, especially using digital modes and cellular technology has to cope with close spaced channels all the time.

 

[68000]

The problem is real and was made worse by OfCom liberalising the spectrum for UMTS use. It is also affecting railways in Europe

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/bi...ireless-telegraphy/responses/Network_Rail.pdf

http://ec.europa.eu/information_soc...sc/rsc35_public_docs/rsc35_item_7_railway.pdf

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/bi...mhz-wireless-telegraphy/statement/UMTS900.pdf

http://www.omnitele.com/wp-content/...o-existence-of-UMTS900-and-GSM-R_approved.pdf

http://www.cer.be/publications/position-papers/2101-cer-uic-position-paper-on-gsm-r-interferences

 

[JohnB57]

The problem is real and was made worse by OfCom liberalising the spectrum for UMTS use. It is also affecting railways in Europe

Thanks for the links. I didn't disbelieve what you were saying by the way just being a bit pedantic!

It seems, unless I've misread the NR response or it is quite an old document, that they are anticipating problems because of previous issues in Europe rather than experiencing problems at present. I think I was correct on current 3G/4G frequencies.

I'm amazed that equipment wasn't specified and designed to have adequate filtration though and equally, that the cost of modification is as high as quoted.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

both my phone and my ipad are on 3. now 3 are known to piggy back onto o2's network so if o2 say they cover the tunnel, that adds some credibility to the possibility im latching onto an external network. my work issue is on o2 an lo and behold the signal works on that too. bear in mind im at the rear of the train so theres nothing in the way of my signal between me and the portal except perhaps a 142 going the other way! the signal will take and receive calls indeed the post earlier was sent while in the tunnel so it definitely works! it will only work west to east, so from diggle to marsden. it doesnt work westbound from marsden to diggle as theres 168 ton of aluminium, steel, plastics, fabric, diesel fuel, passengers, their luggage... etc in my way when im sat at the rear!

 

[34D]

The electric tug is not used any longer. Boats going through do so under their own power but are chaperoned by a C&RT boatman. The support vehicle is stationed near the centre of the tunnel. Boats stop at each adit to telephone the control point to report on progress. Martin Clark's Pennine Waterways page has more information and pictures.
If you are interested in the Northern England canals, Martin's website is the best source of information for most of them.

Regards

Bushy

Most informative site. Thanks bushy

 

[jon0844]

As I have posted elsewhere it is an irony that the use of mobile phones while driving is illegal yet every 2 miles alongside all uk motorway and trunk roads Is a mobile phone mast.

Who told you it's illegal to use a mobile phone while driving, even before considering passengers in vehicles, people on coaches or mobile data connections for sat navs and other logistic/tracking applications?

 

[JohnB57]

both my phone and my ipad are on 3. now 3 are known to piggy back onto o2's network so if o2 say they cover the tunnel, that adds some credibility to the possibility im latching onto an external network. my work issue is on o2 an lo and behold the signal works on that too. bear in mind im at the rear of the train so theres nothing in the way of my signal between me and the portal except perhaps a 142 going the other way! the signal will take and receive calls indeed the post earlier was sent while in the tunnel so it definitely works! it will only work west to east, so from diggle to marsden. it doesnt work westbound from marsden to diggle as theres 168 ton of aluminium, steel, plastics, fabric, diesel fuel, passengers, their luggage... etc in my way when im sat at the rear!

I don't think 3 piggy backs on O2 any more - we had to change my wife's mobile a few years ago when this happened.

This is the layout of the area showing the tunnel portal and the mast, with a 152 metre difference in height: -

[/IMG]

As you can see, the mast is not line of site with the tunnel entrance because of terrain, but could by some fluke be feeding the tunnel. Take your point about the train and contents, but a few million tonnes of rock are a far more effective faraday cage! Keep us informed though - this is really quite fascinating

 

[34D]

Just to clarify from the guard who only gets signal west to east, I had signal (and was browsing the web) from east to west too (middle coach)

 

[jon0844]

Three no longer has 2G roaming agreements with O2 or Orange, but I am not sure if older customers still roam as part of their older contracts. If you signed up with Three today, it would be 3G only.

Three now shares sites with T-Mobile and now Orange since the creation of EE.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Who told you it's illegal to use a mobile phone while driving, even before considering passengers in vehicles, people on coaches or mobile data connections for sat navs and other logistic/tracking applications?

https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law

My point was the irony between the captive market on the train as opposed to the use of it in the car especially the legality, which quite frankly as far as i am concerned is just as stupid, idiotic and dangerous as drink driving. Bear in mind, when the phone network was set up, we could barely make calls and send texts, a world away from the hands free kits and the ability of the smart phones in use today, which if anything can be more of a distraction even when the benefits of their use are taken into account.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just to clarify from the guard who only gets signal west to east, I had signal (and was browsing the web) from east to west too (middle coach)

Nice one! although bear in mind between me and the tunnel mouth there is 168 ton of steel in the way, kind of affects reception a bit!

unless of course I am in the process of carrying out my duties within the train and actively promoting the good name of the company by offering excellent customer service while also carrying out revenue protection. But of course, I am so busy engaging with the travelling public that I don't have time to look at my phone to check if I have signal and update my facebook status....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Three no longer has 2G roaming agreements with O2 or Orange, but I am not sure if older customers still roam as part of their older contracts. If you signed up with Three today, it would be 3G only.

Three now shares sites with T-Mobile and now Orange since the creation of EE.

Have been a customer of 3 for over 6 years an must admit I didn't know that! I knew 3's owning company Hutchinson used to own orange when that network was first introduced. Wether I roam on 2g or not I couldn't say but as my phone and sim have been replaced several times over the years it wouldn't surprise me if I didn't anymore.

 

[jon0844]

If you get a SIM on Three now, you won't be roaming on O2 or Orange - but I really don't know if existing subscribers will continue to do so. Certainly those who roamed on O2 (2G) in the early days continued to do so when newer customers roamed on Orange. It can be set on a per-SIM basis. Perhaps I'll ask Three when I see them next.

As for using a mobile phone when driving, I am glad you've acknowledged it ISN'T illegal to talk on a phone when driving - as long as it's hands-free.

I don't personally regard it as being as dangerous as drink driving because if I am on the phone (which is very rare these days, thanks to SMS, IM and email) then whenever I need to concentrate I'll stop talking or say 'wait a second'. If I was drunk, I wouldn't have any way to temporarily sober up! I think it also depends on what your conversation matter is. Any call I am on will be as short as possible and the caller will be told I'm driving, so 99% of the time it will a case of me saying 'Let's catch up in 20 minutes' or something.

Of course, some people don't use common sense or still hold their mobile (this seems to be increasing possibly due to lack of enforcement) but that's no reason to ban the use of a phone in a car altogether.

Finally, it's common to have issues with using a phone when entering a tunnel from either end as the way a cellular network operates, there's an element of guesswork when someone is moving. As you move, the cell will hand off to where it expects you to be (and if it fails, will hand back). Depending on the position of the sites on either side, you might find that one way can maintain the signal and hand off successfully - and the other way it will fail and then have lost signal and have to hunt for sites.. by which time you're sitting with no signal. It's also why it can take time to re-register when you leave the tunnel even though if you were standing still by the tunnel entrance you'd possibly have maximum signal.

When I was working at What Mobile back in 2003, Orange was stating its intention to put sites by tunnels to offer coverage throughout (rather than using leaky feeders which I presume wasn't possible as it would have required permission to go onto railway property). Given there are still tunnels without any phone coverage, I have to assume Orange never succeeded in doing this!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

My personal phone is on Orange and works through the tunnel when travelling from West to East, I even have full 3G signal. This works normally until we pop out of the tunnel at the Marsden end. My company issue O2 phone cuts out just after entering the tunnel at Diggle and I don't get any useable signal till after Marsden station, and even then O2 is rubbish all the way to Huddersfield, whereas Orange is quite good.

Travelling from East to West Orange starts working about 1/3 of the way into the tunnel. O2 I get nothing till I come out at Diggle.

I don't think it is anything to do with GSM-R. It has been like this for a few years with Orange, and was like this some time before any GSM-R masts etc started appearing.

 

[jon0844]

GSM-R definitely has nothing to do with ordinary GSM or 3G (or indeed LTE) and even if NR did a deal with the networks to share the GSM-R network (specifically antennas for tunnels and deep cuttings) it would need the networks to run their own equipment in to form a connection to their back haul network.

I am not sure how easy it would be to do, but it could certainly generate some money for the railway industry I'd have thought.

 

[swt_passenger]

GSM-R definitely has nothing to do with ordinary GSM or 3G (or indeed LTE) and even if NR did a deal with the networks to share the GSM-R network (specifically antennas for tunnels and deep cuttings) it would need the networks to run their own equipment in to form a connection to their back haul network.

I am not sure how easy it would be to do, but it could certainly generate some money for the railway industry I'd have thought.

As I posted back on page 1, NR are not allowed to piggy back commercial operator's equipment onto their masts, because they have been erected using the railway's permittted development rights, which only allow for bona fide 'railway' purposes...

 

[jon0844]

As I posted back on page 1, NR are not allowed to piggy back commercial operator's equipment onto their masts, because they have been erected using the railway's permittted development rights, which only allow for bona fide 'railway' purposes...

Ah, right.

That's a shame as it would generate revenue and offer a service to passengers - either directly, or indirectly (as in being able to use a better mobile service to offer data to passengers via onboard Wi-Fi).

I believe that when Southern and Heathrow Express got their Wi-Fi service, new sites were erected to ensure near blanket coverage. I also believe that at least on HEX, the service is being upgraded to 4G so speeds to the train will increase to speeds of up to 50 megabits, and a much faster uplink too.

 

[68000]

Not really a shame as NR would never have been allowed to install masts for the railway to use GSM-R without having to go through council planning permission and the amount of public objections that would have brought. The benefit of staying with PDR far outweighs any benefit to the railway of going down the planning permission route. In fact, the objections from the public and especially the well connected very nearly cost NR's use of PDR with the Government starting to look at the railway rules. This led Iain Coucher to decide to increase the number of masts by reducing the size from 29m to 15m as the 29m masts were massive generators of objections

 

[jon0844]

Okay, I see your point on that.

I still think it's a shame that - for whatever reason - such as the public moaning about masts (then having a mobile transmitter next to their ear that has to operate at a higher power as a result of there being less sites, as well as impacting on battery life as a result) there couldn't have been more sites on railway property to improve train coverage.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Common sense thinking going on here, that's dangerous to health and safety rules and nimbyism!!!

So there's no piggybacking going on then, despite messroom talk suggesting there is. Wonder why I'm getting coverage then....

 

[tsr]

I believe that when Southern and Heathrow Express got their Wi-Fi service, new sites were erected to ensure near blanket coverage.

Southern don't officially offer wifi internet connectivity onboard their trains as they claim signal strength is not sufficient in some areas. If what you are saying is correct ("erected to ensure near blanket coverage"), it makes the whole wifi-on-Southern-trains issue rather more farcical.

 

[jon0844]

It was only ever on the Victoria to Brighton services though, wasn't it? I was on the press train on launch day and it worked fine, if a little slow at times.

Nomad Digital Case Study [Doesn't say much though].

I have to say that I only ever used it that one day and don't know if it's been quietly dropped. Likewise on HEX, I only used it on their press train service to launch it (the only time I've travelled first class on HEX too!) - but by then, it was a lot faster. I believe it's still promoted by HEX at least.

 

[neonison]

There are three GSM masts on the hill overlooking Saddleworth Viaduct, Uppermill, just above the famous "spec". From this spot you can see Diglea and the south west portal of Standedge. The tunnel is level (needs to be level as it parallels the canal) but kinks just before the Marsden portal.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There are three GSM masts on the hill overlooking Saddleworth Viaduct, Uppermill, just above the famous "spec". From this spot you can see Diglea and the south west portal of Standedge. The tunnel is level (needs to be level as it parallels the canal) but kinks just before the Marsden portal.

Nice to see that real local knowledge can be brought into play on this thread.

 

[ffm]

Gimmea59anyday says using a mobile phone whisks driving is illegal, no it isn't.

He also says the polarised glass on voyagers and pendolinos affects mobile signal, well it and the body shell firming a great Faraday cage used to, but Virgin have installed internal radio equipment to boost mobile signals, alongside the wifi transmission. They advertise the fact widely, stickers everywhere.

Anon Mouse's comment may prove to give some answer, the signal will be due to a ventilation shaft I guess, maybe masts close to these give some coverage?

I love tunnels and the lack of mobile signal, just watching the phone- gang's perplexing and annoyance is worth the journey in itself.

 

[bicbasher]

I've seen people using mobile phones in the tunnel between Canada Water and Surrey Quays on the East London Line. Hasn't work for me though using EE.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Before anyone else claims that it is not illegal to use a mobile phone while driving, may i refer you to the link i posted earlier that makes it clear without any doubt that it is illegal. Hands free is permitted, however you can still be charged if use of the equipment concerned is causing a distraction to your driving.

 

[ffm]

It is very definitely not illegal to use a mobile phone whilst driving, even your link is absolutely clear on that point. You are confusing using a mobile phone with holding one. Using a hands-free device avoids this. You may be challenged by the Police if they can prove it was distracting you, but of course this is not to do with the hands-free device per se, as it is also true of smoking, using the car radio, talking to others in the car and many, many other distractions. Proving the distraction is difficult though.
You have been over simplifying the issue and in trying to defend your incorrect statement managed to completely contradict yourself, well done!