standedge tunnels and mobile phone signal

[34D]

Hello,

I have passed through the tunnel (between Greenfield and Marsden) today, and was most surprised and pleased to note that I had a good mobile phone signal (I am on T-Mobile, so GSM 1800) throughout the tunnel.

Does anyone know whether a project has been undertaken?

Peascilffe tunnel (ECML, north of Grantham) is likewise, though that tunnel is short.

 

[Lampshade]

I was using my phone on the way back from Leeds about a year ago and just assumed we were delayed/diverted (it was at night so I couldn't tell we were in the tunnel), then we called at Stalybridge hock:

 

[callum112233]

I noticed good service in Stalybridge tunnel when I was on the train the other day. Usually, the signal just cuts me off as soon as I get in the tunnel.

Strange.

Can't comment on standedge because I only got on at Greenfield.

Callum.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Eastbound the signal will work all the way through until you approach the marsden portal. It will work for longer the further towards the rear of the train you are. I have been advised that The introduction of gsm-r (a railway dedicated mobile phone ntwork) over the next couple of years has the added advantage that most mobile phone networks are able to use the signal aswell (my 3 mobile certainly does). Some transmitters are already in place and operational but not all installed transmitters are operating and many are still to be fitted. The aerial is fitted at the tunnel mouths and looks like a small dinner plate with a ghettoblaster type radio aeriel poking out the middle. The diggle one is operational but the marsden one isn't so how well it works westbound I cannot say as from my position there are 3 carriages of 185 traction between me and the working transmitter.

As I have posted elsewhere it is an irony that the use of mobile phones while driving is illegal yet every 2 miles alongside all uk motorway and trunk roads Is a mobile phone mast. Yet even on stretches of track alongside the A1 M1 M4 and M6 motorways trains struggle to maintain any signal, despite a potential captive audience of 500 people per train, and say 10 trains per hour the phone networks don't see any priority in serving the rail network. The fact voyager and pendolino trains are fitted with polarised windows to block certain radio waves from the sun also affect the radio frequencies used by mobile phones.

 

[Silv1983]

All I know is the NRN doesn't work in the tunnel so if mobiles are receiving a signal it won't have been implemented by Network Rail...

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Never had to use nrn within the tunnel as yet fortunately so have never tried...

 

[rebmcr]

all i know is the nrn doesn't work in the tunnel so if mobiles are receiving a signal it won't have been implemented by network rail...

NRN ≠ GSM-R. One is a private radio service running on a dedicated frequency, the other is a packet-switched digital carrier running on a standard frequency. They require completely different antennas and base stations.

 

[D1009]

All I know is the NRN doesn't work in the tunnel so if mobiles are receiving a signal it won't have been implemented by Network Rail...

One of the redundant slow line tunnels is used by the Canal and River Trust (formerly British Waterways) to monitor the canal tunnel which runs parallel, and there are connecting passages. I suggest they have arranged mobile phone coverage so as to be able to maintain contact with their vehicles and also with boats using the tunnel. Is it possible this is the signal being picked up by passengers?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Network rail are introducing the gsm-r to replace nrn, csr etc. it will mean signallers can contact trains directly rather than having to relay though control, or wait for a driver to contact them. likewise drivers won't have to be reliant on signal post telephones as the signaller will know which train is contacting them. Information can be relayed via text message and blackspots that plague nrn will be eliminated, thus making communication easier and can potentially prevent accidents such as Cowden from occurring (the train that had spadded was in a signal blackspot preventing anyone from contacting the trains and giving an emergency stop warning)

 

[Jonfun]

Standedge Tunnel's had 3G mobile signal through it for a good couple of years. Not sure as has been said whether it's a Network Rail thing or something for the canal tunnel though.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

One of the redundant slow line tunnels is used by British Waterways to monitor the canal tunnel which runs parallel, and there are connecting passages. I suggest they have arranged mobile phone coverage so as to be able to maintain contact with their vehicles and also with boats using the tunnel. Is it possible this is the signal being picked up by passengers?

i am certainly not going to discount that as a possibility, i have known to get information wrong. However the phone signal is strong at the diggle portal, and gradually fades as the train passes through the tunnel towards marsden. Such a system for the canal tunnel would be more consistent, so I'd assume anyway!

 

[JohnB57]

I think maintaining a mobile signal through Standedge would be a fluke and suggest that what looks like a good signal on your phone doesn't actually mean you have a signal.

Radio's funny stuff. Anecdotally, when trials were being carried out in the tunnel for emergency communications, they got very strange results. On certain frequencies, they could be close enough to shout to each other and still not get any radio reception.

Piggy backing a normal mobile onto GSM-R is, I'm pretty sure, impossible and it's on or around GSM 900 frequencies (876-880mhz and 921-925mhz), not GSM 1800. It is obviously possible that T-Mobile and/or Orange have co-sited equipment with Network Rail's so that may explain any improvement. I'd be interested to know more about the aerial arrangement described by Gimmea50.

I don't think British Waterways could have anything under there that would have the reported effect on signals.

 

[Silv1983]

NRN ≠ GSM-R. One is a private radio service running on a dedicated frequency, the other is a packet-switched digital carrier running on a standard frequency. They require completely different antennas and base stations.

You misunderstood my point!

Im saying Network Rail wouldn't pay to allow passengers to gaff on their phones before they pay to let drivers gaff on their rail network!

 

[swt_passenger]

I have been advised that The introduction of gsm-r (a railway dedicated mobile phone ntwork) over the next couple of years has the added advantage that most mobile phone networks are able to use the signal aswell (my 3 mobile certainly does).

However, I have read that NR are explicitly NOT allowed to 'piggyback' public GSM on their own network, because all the masts have been put up using existing permitted development rights. That means rail operational purposes only.

I also have a gut feeling that the potential use of GSM(R) infrastructure by public operators is something of a myth pushed hard by those objecting to the masts, who probably think it gives them a better reason for objection, cos they don't like phone masts anyway. They seem to be a major subset of the Nimby tendency...

 

[Anon Mouse]

I can only get phone reception in the middle of Standedge

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Right, just been thru standedge, Manchester bound iPad in one hand, mobile on dash, nrn set to channel 31.

Nrn test call failed to connect, switched to channel 017. Failed to connect. Now I didn't know that but nrn definitely does not work in the tunnel. Just as well there are emergency telephones in the tunnel!

iPad. No signal, mobile no signal until about 1/2 mile from diggle portal. I'm due back through the tunnel at around 2200 eastbound so ill check the signal again and see how it compares. Suffice to say, with 165 ton of train in my way I'm not going to pick up any signal fom the diggle portal, an if there's anything coming from the old down tunnel I ain't picking that up either. There's no way I'm chancing holding my ipad out the back cab window to see if tht works! Especially at 85mph!!!

As for the aerial I will try and get a pic next time I pass thru in daylight, but that's over a week away! Unless you want to try penfold...

 

[JohnB57]

As for the aerial I will try and get a pic next time I pass thru in daylight, but that's over a week away! Unless you want to try penfold...

I think you've whetted my appetite for a little photographic trip on Friday! Where is it located in relation to the tunnel entrance?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Just inside the tunnel portal a few yards in at the crest of the tunnel. I cannot recall making a definite look and seeing it there, just cursory glances as I have passed thru over the years. The description coming from drivers in the mess room who will obviously get a far better view than I ever will. Ill get my bardic tocclite out and try and spot it when I head back through later. After all, I want to make sure I'm not talking bobbins!!!

 

[Ploughman]

A number of years back, probably about 2000, we were working on a relay in the middle of the tunnel. As part of the work we had an aerial installed in the roof of the Diggle portal of one of the old bores. This directed a signal to a receiver, again in the roof that linked to a phone near the access cross shaft to the running tunnel. This set up was required to maintain some form of contact between the inside and outside world.

We had tried all ways of getting a signal into the tunnel but after bringing in a consultant this was the best we could come up with.
There was too much background interference throughout the tunnel that blanked out all signals.

Some tunnels you have no problem with signal, some you may need to be under a shaft, others stood in a certain position. Length didn't appear to be a factor maybe alignment, depth and ground materials As well as any powerlines.

 

[JohnB57]

Just inside the tunnel portal a few yards in at the crest of the tunnel...
...Ill get my bardic tocclite out and try and spot it when I head back through later. After all, I want to make sure I'm not talking bobbins!!!

I had to Google "bardic tocclite" but the search just found your post. If it's inside the tunnel it would be a waste of time trying to photograph it I guess.

A number of years back, probably about 2000, we were working on a relay in the middle of the tunnel. As part of the work we had an aerial installed in the roof of the Diggle portal of one of the old bores. This directed a signal to a receiver, again in the roof that linked to a phone near the access cross shaft to the running tunnel. This set up was required to maintain some form of contact between the inside and outside world.

We had tried all ways of getting a signal into the tunnel but after bringing in a consultant this was the best we could come up with.
There was too much background interference throughout the tunnel that blanked out all signals.

Some tunnels you have no problem with signal, some you may need to be under a shaft, others stood in a certain position. Length didn't appear to be a factor maybe alignment, depth and ground materials As well as any powerlines.

A number of organisations who would have involvement in the case of emergency have been involved over the years, including cave rescue and the Radio Amateurs' Emergency Network - Raynet. I'm not aware of them having found any reliable solution that would work independently of tunnel installations.

 

[Pumbaa]

Length didn't appear to be a factor maybe alignment, depth and ground materials As well as any powerlines.

That is certainly a major factor, both the natural and synthetic material bored underneath. There are more than a couple of tunnels in Scotland that completely blanket all signal, mostly due to the ridiculously metamorphosed rock that it's been driven through.

Equally in caving systems, there can be a surprising variation in signal quality at the same depth, simply because of the material that the caves exist in.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Toclite is the modern led based torch we use that replaced the bardic recently. Damn iPad correction added erroneous letters and words!!!!

 

[Bushy]

One of the redundant slow line tunnels is used by the Canal and River Trust (formerly British Waterways) to monitor the canal tunnel which runs parallel, and there are connecting passages. I suggest they have arranged mobile phone coverage so as to be able to maintain contact with their vehicles and also with boats using the tunnel. Is it possible this is the signal being picked up by passengers?

i am certainly not going to discount that as a possibility, i have known to get information wrong. However the phone signal is strong at the diggle portal, and gradually fades as the train passes through the tunnel towards marsden. Such a system for the canal tunnel would be more consistent, so I'd assume anyway!

I have posted a message on a canal forum I am a member of, I'll let you know if I get any response.

Regards

Bushy

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Eastbound in the tunnel now, still got signal!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Lost it just as the driver started braking for the curve out of the marsden portal! So that must be a good 3/4 of the way through if not more.

Looked for the transmitter. Couldn't see it. However it was very foggy at diggle and aside from the fact the trains doing 70 anyway its very dark!!! Strange as marsden its clear. But then standedge isn't nicknamed weather tunnel for nothing, there usually being two different weather systems at both ends of the tunnel

 

[34D]

Thanks all for the comments so far

 

[calc7]

Looked for the transmitter. Couldn't see it. However it was very foggy at diggle and aside from the fact the trains doing 70 anyway its very dark!!! Strange as marsden its clear. But then standedge isn't nicknamed weather tunnel for nothing, there usually being two different weather systems at both ends of the tunnel

Always a fun transversal to "t'other side of t'hill" - I've had sun and blue skies in Yorkshire, followed by thick fog two minutes later in Lancashire!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I am sure the same phenomenon occurs at summit tunnel. Been a while since I worked over that route so might be time to put a route review in.

 

[Bushy]

I have posted a message on a canal forum I am a member of, I'll let you know if I get any response.

Regards

Bushy

It seems that C&RT currently use a hard wired telephone system; boats navigating the tunnel have to stop at each adit to contact the tunnel control. A more sophisticated system is planned but no programme for its installation yet.

Regards

Bushy

 

[3141]

One of the redundant slow line tunnels is used by the Canal and River Trust (formerly British Waterways) to monitor the canal tunnel which runs parallel, and there are connecting passages. I suggest they have arranged mobile phone coverage so as to be able to maintain contact with their vehicles and also with boats using the tunnel. Is it possible this is the signal being picked up by passengers?

I've been through the canal tunnel twice, in 2002 and 2004 I think, from Diggle to Marsden. I don't recall any use of mobile phones on those occasions by the crew of the electric tug that passengers travelled in. The vehicle that shadows the boats runs in reverse through one of the disused railway tunnels and stops at several cross passages. The driver or his colleague walks through the cross passage to the canal tunnel and communicates with the boats by waving a torch. Whether they would find the expense of putting in a mobile phone system worthwhile is something I'd be interested to find out.

 

[Bushy]

I've been through the canal tunnel twice, in 2002 and 2004 I think, from Diggle to Marsden. I don't recall any use of mobile phones on those occasions by the crew of the electric tug that passengers travelled in. The vehicle that shadows the boats runs in reverse through one of the disused railway tunnels and stops at several cross passages. The driver or his colleague walks through the cross passage to the canal tunnel and communicates with the boats by waving a torch. Whether they would find the expense of putting in a mobile phone system worthwhile is something I'd be interested to find out.

The electric tug is not used any longer. Boats going through do so under their own power but are chaperoned by a C&RT boatman. The support vehicle is stationed near the centre of the tunnel. Boats stop at each adit to telephone the control point to report on progress. Martin Clark's Pennine Waterways page has more information and pictures.
If you are interested in the Northern England canals, Martin's website is the best source of information for most of them.

Regards

Bushy