Standard reasons given for delays and cancellations

[ComUtoR]

Trouble is there's be just as many passengers who think that this is the good driver, not making announcements without good reason. You can't please all of the people all of the time.

There is some evidence that there is a preference for a Human vs the machine; especially during disruption. The automated ones do their job and should be sufficient for most cases and any generally uneventful trip. The flip side of automation is that there is far too many announcements that are required and a Human will usually filter out what they deem unnecessary. That filtering will take place on both sides. A Human Driver will try and stick to what is relevant and a Human passenger will also filter out the superfluous announcements. As @Dr Hoo highlighted earlier. It's comforting to hear any information, irrespective of its content. There is a RED video somewhere which highlights the importance of making such announcements. I'm not sure if any RED videos are archived publicly.

 

[Factotum]

The OPs examples seem to suggest they have been looking at Open Data fed from Trust as well as what is shown in CIS and these are two entirely separate systems and lists of reasons.

The Trust reasons are listed here: https://wiki.openraildata.com/index.php?title=Delay_Attribution_Guide

I don't see "driver's headband too tight" in that list

 

[py_megapixel]

I don't see "driver's headband too tight" in that list

What?

There's a lot of things not in that list, because they will almost never be a delay reason, and this to me seems pretty clearly in that category...

 

[158747]

I can remember waiting for my delayed incoming train and being informed of the reason for the delay ,then travelling to the next station call only to hear a totally different reason being announced on the station loudspeaker for the late arrival of my train . . . . .

I had a similar experience, I was on a train that was held at a station for over an hour to wait for an ambulance to attend to a passenger who had been taken ill. When I got off at the next station the automated announcement said the delay was due to poor rail adhesion conditions, and this was in the middle of August!

 

[ComUtoR]

the automated announcement said the delay was due to poor rail adhesion conditions, and this was in the middle of August!

Poor conditions happen all year round.

 

[158747]

Poor conditions happen all year round.

That is true, but they do not cause widespread delays in the middle of summer especially on this particular day as it was dry at the time.

 

[Annetts key]

As far as I can tell despite all the supposed great progress in signal automation and upgrading associated with for instance the signal work allegedly being done during the current two week long blockade of all Southern trains running in to London Victoria a great many of these unnecessary waits at red signals are associated with train paths to further down the line having not yet been set by the signal control room before the arrival of the relevant train at the relevant signal. Hence the train concerned is backed up at that red signal until the relevant signal room or signalman sets that train path, perhaps after they have made themselves their next cup of tea........

Hence many trains waiting at red signals seems to be caused by train pathing still not being sufficiently automated or pre-planned even though of course some red signal delays are caused by men working on the track, youths walking on the line or congestion further up the line caused by a defective train or a passenger on the line. However the information that a train is not proceeding any further just because it is at a red signal is inherently unsatisfactory given that it was self evident all along that was the case but the information is more or less useless without further information as to the cause of the signal being at red rather than at green, amber or double amber..............

Railway signals designed for displaying aspect to train drivers don’t have amber or double amber aspects. Only red, yellow, double yellow and green main aspect, or white for shunting, crossing indicators, route or junction indicators, banner indicators, off indicators and some other specific signals.

The only railway signals that have amber aspects/lamp assemblies are road traffic lights at level crossings.

With controlled signals, their normal state unless routed is red. With automatic signals, their normal state (assuming there is no train in the section that they protect) is a proceed aspect (yellow, double yellow or green depending on the aspect of the next signal).

No signaller intentionally keeps a signal red for a train. If a signal is red, there is normally a VERY good reason for it.

On the approach to large stations, one problem can be that the scheduled platform is not available due to a late running train occupying it. The signaller can’t normally just pick a random empty platform. The station staff and the signaller and maybe control have to agree which alternate platform (if any is available) will be used.

I live very far from DOO land. Hence the vast majority of announcements are made by the guard/train manager/(whatever other name the TOC is using this week). This person will normally not know the reason that the train is being held, or the reason for the delay until either the driver has been told and then passed the information on. Or they receive the information from control.

The driver is not permitted to be distracted while driving. So unless it is an emergency, drivers are not contacted to inform them. Signallers wait for them to call them.

Unless otherwise indicated (written instructions or sign fitted to the signal or verbal instruction from earlier from a signaller), drivers will wait the (standard) two minutes at a red signal before calling the signaller (as per the standing rules). - EDIT: It appears the relevant rules have changed since I last read the section where this was. See the reply later in this topic.

 

[ComUtoR]

Unless otherwise indicated (written instructions or sign fitted to the signal or verbal instruction from earlier from a signaller), drivers will wait the (standard) two minutes at a red signal before calling the signaller (as per the standing rules).

Um...

Current rules (2015) are slightly different.

 

[Capvermell]

Um...

Current rules (2015) are slightly different.

So what are the rules in effect from 2015 onwards and can they be found and read anywhere online?

 

[ComUtoR]

https://www.rssb.co.uk/standards-catalogue/CatalogueItem/germ8000-traindriver-iss-11 It requires a login but I'm sure someone has archived it online somewhere

 

[Annetts key]

Um...

Current rules (2015) are slightly different.

Apologies.
Not being a driver, we don’t get briefed about rule book changes that don’t normally affect us.
The relevant section currently says:

1.1 When to contact the signaller
When your train is detained on a running line at a signal at danger, or without a movement authority (MA), you must contact the signaller as soon as possible.
However, you may wait for up to two minutes before contacting the signaller if you can see an obvious reason for the signal being at danger, or not having an MA such as:
• the section ahead being occupied by a train
• a conflicting movement being made.
If the signaller has told you to wait for the signal to clear, or for an MA, you must contact the signaller again every five minutes unless the signaller has given you other instructions.

MA means movement authority.

 

[ComUtoR]

Apologies.

None required but cheers anyway.

Probably the first button to wear out on the GSMR is the SG one...

 

[Pigeon]

AFAIK there is no flexibility to add a custom reasons to the system, but there are plenty to choose from which should cover every situation (or very close to it)

http://wiki.openraildata.com/index.php/Darwin:Late_Running_reason_codes_and_text

Regarding your examples, the flooding or closed signal box might have been on a previous journey for that sake train or driver.

Thank you! Someone posted the text of that list directly on here a while back, but without a link to the source. Following that link I find about 80 new reasons that weren't on the previous list. The service on 217.155.46.54:46009 has now been updated.

 

[Rob Gibson]

How will these passengers get off and walk if held for a lengthy period at a red signal without any announcements, explanation or information whatsoever from a certain profile of totally uncommunicative monosyllabic train driver when all remaining slam door stock (now confined only to heritage railways who's customers are presumably deemed more intelligent and less interested in committing suicide than rail travellers in the population at large and especially beered up groups of football fans) disappeared from the network somewhere around the turn of the millennium.

Although most automatic sliding door train stock does normally have a way to manually release the doors it usually requires some form of glass to be broken to operate it and is also accompanied by extensive threats of fines and prosecution if used maliciously. And even though I am an extremely impatient passenger with Aspergers who absolutely loathes being held at red signals on trains for long periods without any form of explanation (which does happen with some drivers who simply don't give a 4X for keeping passengers informed) even I would not pursue such a radical and dangerous course of action.

I also have Aspergers and strongly object to you using it as an excuse for your highly offensive attitude towards rail staff (I worked in signalling design, signals are Red for a good reason) you really should know better. You don’t seem to be interested in understanding how things work so I won’t try explaining.

 

[LCC106]

I also have Aspergers and strongly object to you using it as an excuse for your highly offensive attitude towards rail staff (I worked in signalling design, signals are Red for a good reason) you really should know better. You don’t seem to be interested in understanding how things work so I won’t try explaining.

Another occasion where a “like” button would be useful.

As a driver up North whose trains have a guard, I tend not to need to make announcements. If I do, however, I only ever do so when driving on green signals or stationary. Our priority is to drive in a safe manner. Any announcements should be relevant and brief.

I’m not sure how many drivers would aspire to become a pilot. Train driving is a professional career in its own right and not all people have the aptitude for it, even those who pass the psychometric assessments.

I’m also unsure as to who is qualified to categorise class of passenger between heritage lines and the mainline, but some of the language used in this thread is very disparaging to rail staff and the general public alike. Let’s keep this civil please.