Stand time at termini

[notadriver]

I was told yesterday by some bus driver friends that if a bus arrives late, it is expected to leave immediately so time can be made up and drivers using the toilet except on scheduled breaks will be placed on report. Is this normal practice ?

 

[burns20]

If you arrive late say 0855 for a 0850 departure you can still go to the toilet...there is always a good reason that you were late.

Wouldn't want to work for your mates firm if this is practice.

 

[Deerfold]

I was told yesterday by some bus driver friends that if a bus arrives late, it is expected to leave immediately so time can be made up and drivers using the toilet except on scheduled breaks will be placed on report. Is this normal practice ?

I'd say they'd normally be expected to leave straight away unless they need a "comfort break".

 

[34D]

I wouldn't have any issue with a toilet stop, but I would have issues with a coffee run etc.

That is what proper brakes are for.

 

[Mojo]

That is what proper brakes are for.

Totally agree. Not using the brake when going to grab a coffee is totally unacceptable

 

[notadriver]

On domestic hours it's possible to go 5.5 hours without a proper break. Does that mean a bus driver is expected drive for that time without eating or drinking? If so it seems a bit harsh.

What about coaches - if on a 4.5 hour stint (let's suppose this is Brighton to Victoria and return) it's 30 minutes late into Victoria would the driver not be entitled to get a coffee or a snack from the shop before loading for the return journey ?

 

[455driver]

yep 5.5 hours in the seat is allowed, I regularly used to do 5 hours without a break (1hr 10 out, 5 min, 1hr 10 back, 5 min, 1hr 10 out, 5 min, 1hr 10 back run/wobble to the toilet) you only got the 5 mins if you were on time, which we werent very often.

 

[Statto]

yep 5.5 hours in the seat is allowed, I regularly used to do 5 hours without a break (1hr 10 out, 5 min, 1hr 10 back, 5 min, 1hr 10 out, 5 min, 1hr 10 back run/wobble to the toilet) you only got the 5 mins if you were on time, which we werent very often.

One route in my area starts/terminates at my local station so connects with the trains, the bus journey time in total is about 35 minutes as it's a Circular route. so such the driver, driving on the route will have 10-15 minute layover every hour during the day, with 20-25 minute layover every hour evening & Sundays

 

[34D]

One route in my area starts/terminates at my local station so connects with the trains, the bus journey time in total is about 35 minutes as it's a Circular route. so such the driver, driving on the route will have 10-15 minute layover every hour during the day, with 20-25 minute layover every hour evening & Sundays

That is an excellent example of best practice.

 

[High Dyke]

Once got subbed out to another depot for a month or so...they decided to only allow me to learn one route. It was a circular route from a town centre stop, not the bus station. You only had about 10 - 15 minutes standing time before the next trip. However you were out for about 9 hours, but no actual lunch break. It was calculated that the standing time accrued to allow a sufficient rest period....

The only way to get a 'comfort break' was to drop a run...drive round to the bus station and be quick about it.... I had my fair share of run-ins with the traffic regulator when i turned up for a pee... I think my colourful use of anglo-saxon language to explain that i wasn't spending all day without a 'comfort break' eventually made them change their mind and let me route learn other town services too.

Once back at my home depot and on the regular service i drove on a daily basis for the last few years (1h 35m trip) i always found time to take a 'comfort break' at the terminus before departing again; oh and you had to pass the coffee machine in the messroom as well.

 

[Robertj21a]

That is an excellent example of best practice.

Excellent example - but at a significant price. Having a driver doing nothing for so long is very wasteful.

Robert

 

[SWTH]

On domestic hours it's possible to go 5.5 hours without a proper break. Does that mean a bus driver is expected drive for that time without eating or drinking? If so it seems a bit harsh.

What about coaches - if on a 4.5 hour stint (let's suppose this is Brighton to Victoria and return) it's 30 minutes late into Victoria would the driver not be entitled to get a coffee or a snack from the shop before loading for the return journey ?

No. If its not a scheduled break then the driver isn't entitled to take it. However, driving hours regulations must be observed - if within that 4.5hr stint (say for example a return trip is 2hr 10min each way with a 5 min turn around at each end) you reach the halfway point (in your example Victoria) and are late enough that you cannot complete your next journey without exceeding your hours then you must take the legally required break (either 45mins or a split of 15mins then 30mins) immediately - it is illegal to begin a scheduled service knowing you will not be able to complete it within the remaining time available.

Several routes down here are very close to the 5hr 30min maximum on domestic rules for one round trip - the route simply gets registered in several portions to avoid having to use tachographs, despite being well over the 50km maximum for domestic hours.

 

[34D]

No. If its not a scheduled break then the driver isn't entitled to take it. However, driving hours regulations must be observed - if within that 4.5hr stint (say for example a return trip is 2hr 10min each way with a 5 min turn around at each end) you reach the halfway point (in your example Victoria) and are late enough that you cannot complete your next journey without exceeding your hours then you must take the legally required break (either 45mins or a split of 15mins then 30mins) immediately - it is illegal to begin a scheduled service knowing you will not be able to complete it within the remaining time available.

I don't believe this to be correct. If you are about to do a 50 min run, but only have 40 mins driving left, then there is nothing wrong with starting the run, then either getting a relief driver/having a break en route/using the 'emergency' provisions.

Several routes down here are very close to the 5hr 30min maximum on domestic rules for one round trip - the route simply gets registered in several portions to avoid having to use tachographs, despite being well over the 50km maximum for domestic hours.

This isn't actually allowed. There was a case several years ago. Routes can be split for ENCTS purposes but not for tacho purposes.

Care to provide the examples?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Once got subbed out to another depot for a month or so...they decided to only allow me to learn one route. It was a circular route from a town centre stop, not the bus station. You only had about 10 - 15 minutes standing time before the next trip. However you were out for about 9 hours, but no actual lunch break. It was calculated that the standing time accrued to allow a sufficient rest period....

The only way to get a 'comfort break' was to drop a run...drive round to the bus station and be quick about it.... I had my fair share of run-ins with the traffic regulator when i turned up for a pee... I think my colourful use of anglo-saxon language to explain that i wasn't spending all day without a 'comfort break' eventually made them change their mind and let me route learn other town services too.

Once back at my home depot and on the regular service i drove on a daily basis for the last few years (1h 35m trip) i always found time to take a 'comfort break' at the terminus before departing again; oh and you had to pass the coffee machine in the messroom as well.

Worth pointing out that these days this would be illegal, as the Road Transport Working Time Directive entitles you to an uninterrupted 20 min break after 6 hours work (which is an uninterrupted 6 hours, driving or other things).

 

[Deerfold]

This isn't actually allowed. There was a case several years ago. Routes can be split for ENCTS purposes but not for tacho purposes.

Care to provide the examples?

I thought it was fairly common - as with the Transpeak http://www.highpeakbuses.com/Documents/TP - Nottingham - Manchester.pdf

This is registered as 3 services with VOSA (with a 4th cancelled one covering the former Nottingham - Derby section) as Transpeak 2, 3 and 4.

 

[Welshman]

Splitting of longer routes into 2, 3 or 4 sections now does seem common throughout the country, but I thought it was more to do with domestic vs European regulations on drivers' hours, rather than specifically whether a tacho-equipped bus is provided.

But I've never fully understood it, so I could quite easily be wrong!

As far as the bus pass is concerned, it simply means it has to be re-presented each time a new section is entered, i.e. each section is considered a separate journey, but with the one bus and driver working throughout.

That, anyhow, is how it is west of Offa's Dyke. It could be different under the ENCTS scheme.

 

[causton]

Sounds the same around here. Uno do it with the 635/700 "guaranteed connection" to/from Stansted Airport!

 

[Deerfold]

Splitting of longer routes into 2, 3 or 4 sections now does seem common throughout the country, but I thought it was more to do with domestic vs European regulations on drivers' hours, rather than specifically whether a tacho-equipped bus is provided.

But I've never fully understood it, so I could quite easily be wrong!
.

I was under the impression that if you're running with a tachometer you also have to use European hours.

I'd appreciate clarification on that.

 

[PG]

I don't believe this to be correct. If you are about to do a 50 min run, but only have 40 mins driving left, then there is nothing wrong with starting the run, then either getting a relief driver/having a break en route/using the 'emergency' provisions.

I don't see anything wrong with the first of these ie driver commencing a journey but unable to complete it due to running out of hours and a relief driver taking over enroute.

The other two scenarios :
If its a scheduled service then having an unscheduled break enroute for a foreseeable event is likely to be frowned upon by the traffic commissioners.

The emergency provisions are just that - for genuine emergencies ie coach on a motorway comes a cropper with unforeseen traffic congestion which results in driver running out of hours. So because it's unsafe to park at the side of a motorway the journey may continue to a place where it is safe to stop. Thats entirely different to commencing a journey knowing that you haven't legally got enough hours left to complete it.

 

[notadriver]

If you are operating a scheduled bus service with a schedule card you do not have to use a Tachograph if fitted to the vehicle. When I was a London bus driver I drove a few tacho equipped vehicles.

 

[SWTH]

Only if the route is under 50km. Then it comes within scope of EC rules, unless the route has been registered under multiple sections. National Express is the easiest example of a scheduled service with running cards using tachographs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't believe this to be correct. If you are about to do a 50 min run, but only have 40 mins driving left, then there is nothing wrong with starting the run, then either getting a relief driver/having a break en route/using the 'emergency' provisions.

This isn't actually allowed. There was a case several years ago. Routes can be split for ENCTS purposes but not for tacho purposes.

Care to provide the examples?

You can certainly arrange for relief en route, but you cannot begin a journey intending to drive throughout knowing that you will exceed your hours. VOSA take an extremely dim view of any case of contravening driving hours rules.

Splitting a route IS legal for domestic hours purposes.

Examples:
Western Greyhound 510 Newquay to Exeter - over 100 miles, split into 4 separate registrations each less than 31m/50km long.
Western Greyhound 547 Newquay to St Ives (Summer Only) - over 50 miles, split into 2 sections. One round trip takes 5hr 16min with no breaks.
Western Greyhound 593 Newquay to Plymouth - over 70 miles, split into 3 sections. Round trip takes 4hr 50min with no break.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Worth pointing out that these days this would be illegal, as the Road Transport Working Time Directive entitles you to an uninterrupted 20 min break after 6 hours work (which is an uninterrupted 6 hours, driving or other things).

According to a CPC instructor the Road Transport WTD does not apply to vehicles/drivers working under EC or GB domestic rules - you can't mix 'n' match different sets of rules.

 

[34D]

According to a CPC instructor the Road Transport WTD does not apply to vehicles/drivers working under EC or GB domestic rules - you can't mix 'n' match different sets of rules.

Yes you can suggest your CPC trainer goes on a refresher.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought it was fairly common - as with the Transpeak http://www.highpeakbuses.com/Documents/TP - Nottingham - Manchester.pdf

This is registered as 3 services with VOSA (with a 4th cancelled one covering the former Nottingham - Derby section) as Transpeak 2, 3 and 4.

Isn't that three services to do an ENCTS raid, rather than try to avoid the tacho law?

Presumably the drivers use tachos and conform to EC hours though

 

[Deerfold]

Isn't that three services to do an ENCTS raid, rather than try to avoid the tacho law?

Presumably the drivers use tachos and conform to EC hours though

It was previously reported on here to be to avoid having to use tachos and EU hours:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60388&page=11

I've read about several of these and never seen the suggestion before they were ENTCS raids.

 

[SWTH]

Yes you can suggest your CPC trainer goes on a refresher.

From the VOSA Driving Hours book, Annex 2; Working Time Rules.

If you are driving under the GB domestic drivers’ hours rules (or are an occasional mobile worker)
If you drive a vehicle subject to the GB domestic drivers’ hours rules or are an occasional mobile worker (see text box opposite), you are affected by four provisions under the 1998 Regulations.
These are:
• weekly working time, which must not exceed an average of 48 hours per week over the reference period (although individuals can ‘opt out’ of this requirement if they want to);
• to ‘an entitlement to 4.8 weeks’ paid annual leave (increased to 5.6 weeks from 1 April 2009);
• health checks for night workers; and
• an entitlement to adequate rest.

The WTD does not otherwise affect GB Domestic hours drivers.

However, I was mistaken in saying it didn't apply to drivers working to EC Rules.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Isn't that three services to do an ENCTS raid, rather than try to avoid the tacho law?

Presumably the drivers use tachos and conform to EC hours though

If they're operating in a similar fashion to WGL's 510/547/593 then they will be on domestic rules with no tachographs.

 

[34D]

I am actually shocked by the suggestion that these long routes operate without tachos. Wasn't there a case (few years back) where this was clarified (that services couldn't be chopped up in this manner)?

 

[notadriver]

The hours bus drivers are expected to work, the way they are treated and rates of pay are disgusting. I don't know how employers get away with it.

 

[34D]

The hours bus drivers are expected to work, the way they are treated and rates of pay are disgusting. I don't know how employers get away with it.

With respect, you're only saying that as you're now a train driver and receiving a vastly inflated salary.

For most other blue collar jobs, £9ish-£12ish per hour is a good rate.

 

[notadriver]

What do you mean vastly inflated ?

And many bus driver jobs pay far less than £9 an hour - but more to the point, it's the way drivers are treated and the hours that they have to work to earn a decent living which is the problem.

If I could run my own coach company drivers would be on at least £12 an hour, breaks paid etc.

 

[34D]

What do you mean vastly inflated ?

And many bus driver jobs pay far less than £9 an hour - but more to the point, it's the way drivers are treated and the hours that they have to work to earn a decent living which is the problem.

If I could run my own coach company drivers would be on at least £12 an hour, breaks paid etc.

Well, because of the unions and that training is a closed shop, the rate of pay is vastly above what it would otherwise be.

And it depends on the area. The firm I work at pays a fair rate and treats it's staff well. Most people do 40-50 hours a week (their choice to do more than 40).

 

[SWTH]

The rate of pay is only good if it matches the cost of living. £8.10p/h with no benefits, a contract that doesn't state the minimum number of hours the company will give you every week, no pension/sick pay, all in one of the most expensive counties to live in (yet is also considered one of the poorest counties in England) is pretty poor. I used to work 60-70hrs a week every week purely to keep up with the bills and have a little spare in my pocket.

I know I've banged on about it before but bus drivers are treated like disposable items in many companies - we are made to feel that we are a necessary evil for the management to endure, rather than the human assets that bring the cash in. Quite frankly I'd be treated better if I stacked shelves in Tesco.

 

[34D]

The rate of pay is only good if it matches the cost of living. £8.10p/h with no benefits, a contract that doesn't state the minimum number of hours the company will give you every week, no pension/sick pay, all in one of the most expensive counties to live in (yet is also considered one of the poorest counties in England) is pretty poor. I used to work 60-70hrs a week every week purely to keep up with the bills and have a little spare in my pocket.

I know I've banged on about it before but bus drivers are treated like disposable items in many companies - we are made to feel that we are a necessary evil for the management to endure, rather than the human assets that bring the cash in. Quite frankly I'd be treated better if I stacked shelves in Tesco.

In some companies, you are probably right. If anyone on here has a bus licence and wants to relocate to Yorkshire then please pm me