Staly to Manchester Airport

[David Sinnett]

If when Manchester Airport becomes a through station with a loop available to Altrincham do you think trains from the north via Stalybridge could run via Denton, Stockport, Northenden, Altrincham to the Airport and thence into Manchester or onward to Crewe/Chester or would all services still go into Manchester and out to the airport and then back to Manchester via the loop?

 

[snowball]

If when Manchester Airport becomes a through station with a loop available to Altrincham do you think trains from the north via Stalybridge could run via Denton, Stockport, Northenden, Altrincham to the Airport and thence into Manchester or onward to Crewe/Chester or would all services still go into Manchester and out to the airport and then back to Manchester via the loop?

First, it's far from certain that Manchester Airport will ever become a through station.

Second, as I understand it, a train going westwards through the airport station and reaching a junction with the Mid-Cheshire line would not have the option of heading towards Altrincham. The junction would only allow it to head towards Knutsford. Unless the train were to reverse.

 

[David Sinnett]

So, if when the airport becomes a through station alll the trains from across the Yorks/NE, NW region will still come in from Manchester and have to reverse back to Manchester and on to destination unless going on across the Cheshire plain?

 

[snowball]

As far as I know, yes. Remember the airport station will soon have four platforms, two of which will remain east-facing terminal platforms even if the westward extension is built.

 

[cle]

I doubt much demand for it. I wonder what other services a through route would offer. I imagine just newer commuter routes rather than anything that innovative.

I'd be interested to know how much traffic there is which would benefit from a direct MAN - Stockport - Stalybridge link. You'd need a new curve at Cheadle (!!!) for this to work. A loop via Alty (with the capacity constraints at Navvy Rd) wuld be odd.

Regardless, I'd say Manchester is the main intermediate point, with the majority of journeys ending/beginning there. Probably not worth it, especially at quite slow speeds.

 

[dewsnapsliding]

Isn't the new service intended to reduce crossing movements though by going through Victoria as grade separated?

This is why the option for the services going via Guide Bridge into Manchester and then back towards the airport was rejected as it requires a traversal of most of the running lines at Piccadilly. The above service would do the same, just at Stockport.

I had suggested on a previous thread that a retained Tiviot Dale line could have seen services via Stalybridge, Hyde North, Woodley, Tiviot Dale and then onto MAN avoid Manchester altogether, although as someone else has mentioned possibly the reason that the trains are so heavily loaded is because they serve Manchester.

 

[David Sinnett]

I guess the majority of trains coming into Manchester for Manchester AND the airport are loaded with passengers for the city or onward connections from the city centre/rail station. Does it therefore make sense for so many different services to run a service through to the airport? Why not just run a shuttle but also let those from the south call in the airport on the way to the city.

 

[northwichcat]

So, if when the airport becomes a through station alll the trains from across the Yorks/NE, NW region will still come in from Manchester and have to reverse back to Manchester and on to destination unless going on across the Cheshire plain?

All services from West Yorkshire to the Airport (including likely some from Bradford) will go to Victoria then continue to the Airport via the new Ordsall Chord and Piccadilly platforms 13-16.

The idea of a new western link would be the Airport services could continue to Liverpool (via Runcorn) or to North Wales and then have more destinations served from the Airport without requiring more paths between the Airport and Piccadilly.

 

[cle]

Are frequencies from the low numbered Piccadilly platofmrs increasing as a result of less reversing/crossing moves of TPE across the throat at Piccadilly?

 

[northwichcat]

If when Manchester Airport becomes a through station with a loop available to Altrincham do you think trains from the north via Stalybridge could run via Denton, Stockport, Northenden, Altrincham to the Airport and thence into Manchester or onward to Crewe/Chester or would all services still go into Manchester and out to the airport and then back to Manchester via the loop?

The Airport spur would join the Mid-Cheshire line between Mobberley and Ashley if it gets extended. I don't think trains from Altrincham direction would be high priority for running through to the Airport.
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Are frequencies from the low numbered Piccadilly platofmrs increasing as a result of less reversing/crossing moves of TPE across the throat at Piccadilly?

The Northern Hub document does state they'll be capacity improvements around the Slade Lane Junction area but doesn't expand on how that will be achieved.

 

[edwin_m]

The Airport spur would join the Mid-Cheshire line between Mobberley and Ashley if it gets extended. I don't think trains from Altrincham direction would be high priority for running through to the Airport.

Bearing in mind the proximity of the M56 and the HS2 alignment, I doubt there would be any room left for a northward curve anyway.

 

[northwichcat]

Bearing in mind the proximity of the M56 and the HS2 alignment, I doubt there would be any room left for a northward curve anyway.

It could also be done with a new turnback facility and signalling alterations. However, I wouldn't see Stalybridge-Mobberley/Knutsford-Manchester Airport being on a list of potential new services. Maybe even from Manchester Airport send it back to Stalybridge via Manchester to complete a full circle?

 

[Holly]

I could see the HS2 section from Airport to Piccadilly being axed at a very late stage to save money. Since it would be a lot of money. With Davenport Green becoming the HS2 terminus.

In which case there would be a need to somehow bring classic rail into the new Davenport Green Station. And one way to do that would be having an airport through line that swings North. But not to Altrincham.

 

[Greybeard33]

Are frequencies from the low numbered Piccadilly platofmrs increasing as a result of less reversing/crossing moves of TPE across the throat at Piccadilly?

I believe the Northern Hub study envisaged some increases in frequency to Glossop/Hadfield and Marple/Rose Hill.

 

[edwin_m]

I could see the HS2 section from Airport to Piccadilly being axed at a very late stage to save money. Since it would be a lot of money. With Davenport Green becoming the HS2 terminus.

That would be an absolute disaster for integrated transport and social inclusion.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Bearing in mind the proximity of the M56 and the HS2 alignment, I doubt there would be any room left for a northward curve anyway.

Study undertaken; in 2000/2001 - "Western Link North Chord", for sSRA.

It does fit, but it is very slow and costly and we struggled to identify any demand (at the time). A Metrolink link from Alty to Airport via Hale and Hale Barns is a much more attractive proposition from a patronage point of view and was debated (a while ago) as the alternative to looping the Airport line back on itself.

The so-called Western Link gives you a direct route to Chester and North Wales, the opportunity for a western station at the airport and even a shuttle MIA - John Lennon, if only someone would design a link at the JL end ... All, that said, we're a way off seeing the temporary wall at the end of MIA p1 coming down just yet!
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The Northern Hub document does state they'll be capacity improvements around the Slade Lane Junction area but doesn't expand on how that will be achieved.

Almost certain to be delivered, wearing a false moustache, as part of the imminent re-signalling of Manchester Piccadilly (which may or may not also include elements of remodelling)

 

[The Planner]

I thought the re-jigging of the throat was a dead cert as you can save loads of point ends?

 

[edwin_m]

Does this finally change Slade Lane to Edgeley from paired by direction to paired by use?

 

[northwichcat]

Study undertaken; in 2000/2001 - "Western Link North Chord", for sSRA.

It does fit, but it is very slow and costly and we struggled to identify any demand (at the time). A Metrolink link from Alty to Airport via Hale and Hale Barns is a much more attractive proposition from a patronage point of view and was debated (a while ago) as the alternative to looping the Airport line back on itself.

The so-called Western Link gives you a direct route to Chester and North Wales, the opportunity for a western station at the airport and even a shuttle MIA - John Lennon, if only someone would design a link at the JL end ... All, that said, we're a way off seeing the temporary wall at the end of MIA p1 coming down just yet!

It was examined alongside an eastern link from Stockport but the western link was seen as more useful. Also the western link was mentioned in a more recent Network Rail RUS as a potential CP6 project if the current Airport-Piccadilly line is full to capacity. The idea of a western link isn't primarily to improve local links as it would cost too much to justify just for local links.

TfGM recently estimated the cost of extending Metrolink to Hale using tram-trains as around £81m and that doesn't include the cost of running onwards at street level to the Airport via Hale Barnes. Also note Metrolink is fine for getting Airport workers to and from the Airport but isn't really suitable for holiday makers at present - the bye-laws forbid large items of luggage being taken on trams and it would also be a slow service that has similar timings to the number 18 bus from Altrincham to the Airport.

 

[Greybeard33]

Does this finally change Slade Lane to Edgeley from paired by direction to paired by use?

Would this not just create a worse pinch point at Adswood Road Junction, where trains travelling in opposite directions would have to cross each others paths where the four tracks merge to two? The double track section between here and Cheadle Hulme is already a capacity constraint. It would also be confusing/annoying for passengers at Stockport if trains to Manchester departed from both islands instead of just one.
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TfGM recently estimated the cost of extending Metrolink to Hale using tram-trains as around £81m and that doesn't include the cost of running onwards at street level to the Airport via Hale Barnes. Also note Metrolink is fine for getting Airport workers to and from the Airport but isn't really suitable for holiday makers at present - the bye-laws forbid large items of luggage being taken on trams and it would also be a slow service that has similar timings to the number 18 bus from Altrincham to the Airport.

Might an alternative route for a tram-train line be to leave the Mid-Cheshire further south, where it crosses the M56 between Hale and Ashley, and run alongside the motorway to the HS2 station at Davenport Green? This would be quicker than street running through Hale Barns even though it is further.

 

[snowball]

Might an alternative route for a tram-train line be to leave the Mid-Cheshire further south, where it crosses the M56 between Hale and Ashley, and run alongside the motorway to the HS2 station at Davenport Green? This would be quicker than street running through Hale Barns even though it is further.

Wouldn't serve the populated areas around the A538. But it could share tracks with a heavy rail extension for part of the way east to the airport if both were built.

 

[edwin_m]

Would this not just create a worse pinch point at Adswood Road Junction, where trains travelling in opposite directions would have to cross each others paths where the four tracks merge to two? The double track section between here and Cheadle Hulme is already a capacity constraint. It would also be confusing/annoying for passengers at Stockport if trains to Manchester departed from both islands instead of just one.

I was assured by one of the people that came up with the idea that the conflicts created at Adswood and elsewhere would be less bad than the ones avoided at Slade Lane and elsewhere, probably helped by trying to keep trains via Hazel Grove on the eastern tracks and trains via Northenden on the western ones. However I wasn't totally convinced by this and I agree it would be a royal pain for anyone at Stockport wanting the next train to Manchester.

I believe this scheme was cancelled/postponed due to cuts in the West Coast Route Modernisation, partly influenced by the difficulties being had with the Ansaldo signalling that was originally intended to extend through Stockport. I'd be interested to hear if it is still on the wishlist.

 

[Greybeard33]

I was assured by one of the people that came up with the idea that the conflicts created at Adswood and elsewhere would be less bad than the ones avoided at Slade Lane and elsewhere, probably helped by trying to keep trains via Hazel Grove on the eastern tracks and trains via Northenden on the western ones. However I wasn't totally convinced by this and I agree it would be a royal pain for anyone at Stockport wanting the next train to Manchester.

I believe this scheme was cancelled/postponed due to cuts in the West Coast Route Modernisation, partly influenced by the difficulties being had with the Ansaldo signalling that was originally intended to extend through Stockport. I'd be interested to hear if it is still on the wishlist.

Is it correct that (to avoid platform remodelling at Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel) the proposal was just to swap the Fasts, rather than pair the Slows as well? So the arrangement would be DS-UF-DF-US throughout instead of the current DS-DF-UF-US south of Slade Lane and DS-US-DF-UF north of Slade Lane?
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Wouldn't serve the populated areas around the A538. But it could share tracks with a heavy rail extension for part of the way east to the airport if both were built.

I had in mind an alignment that would stay north of the motorway and join the (proposed) Metrolink Wythenshawe loop at Davenport Green, so running into the Metrolink platforms at the airport station rather than needing precious paths into the mainline platforms.

 

[alwaystouchout]

I could see the HS2 section from Airport to Piccadilly being axed at a very late stage to save money. Since it would be a lot of money. With Davenport Green becoming the HS2 terminus.

In which case there would be a need to somehow bring classic rail into the new Davenport Green Station. And one way to do that would be having an airport through line that swings North. But not to Altrincham.

Quite likely if HS2 costs spiral out of control as the antis suggest, although in that doomsday scenario surely there'd be a case to have HS2 join the existing Airport spur and head up the Styal line? Having a HS2 terminus that in no way connects to the existing rail network is in nobody's interests.

 

[Chris125]

I could see the HS2 section from Airport to Piccadilly being axed at a very late stage to save money. Since it would be a lot of money. With Davenport Green becoming the HS2 terminus.

Not a chance IMO, the expense 'saved' would be more than outweighed by the impact on the business case of HS2 and the wider economic benefits. It certainly wouldn't make sense politically. If anything was to be cut it would be the airport station, with the local contribution put towards Piccadilly instead.

Chris

 

[edwin_m]

The airport is likely to be asked to cough up the local contribution to the airport station, and I don't think they'd be willing to do that if the station wasn't near the airport.

 

[snowball]

The airport is likely to be asked to cough up the local contribution to the airport station, and I don't think they'd be willing to do that if the station wasn't near the airport.

Is anyone suggesting one that isn't? I don't think Holly is. Not that I think Holly's suggestion is likely to happen.

 

[Starmill]

Almost certain to be delivered, wearing a false moustache, as part of the imminent re-signalling of Manchester Piccadilly (which may or may not also include elements of remodelling)

How imminent is imminent? Slade Lane is a pain But waiting for 9/10/11/12 to become free, and being stuck on the wrong side of the road through 13 is also a pain. Alas I don't know which is worse :/

 

[Chris125]

Is anyone suggesting one that isn't? I don't think Holly is. Not that I think Holly's suggestion is likely to happen.

I was saying that if any station was dropped to save money it would be the airport stop.

Chris