Staions in the same group - ticket anomalies?

[142094]

Mainly going on two examples I know in West Yorkshire, Bradford and Wakefield. Sorry if these have been asked before.

If I wanted to travel from Wakefield Westgate to Kirkgate, I can get a single for £1. However going from Bradford Interchange to Forster Sq., there is no available ticket it seems. What determines whether one group can have travel between the stations in the group and whether one cannot?

The second is the difference in prices between some stations. For example getting a ticket to Leeds from both. From BDI it is £2.85 single, from BDQ it is also £2.85. However if I get a ticket to Shipley from BDI it is only £1.35 single (according to Advantix), which must be valid via Leeds.

 

[yorkie]

The second is the difference in prices between some stations. For example getting a ticket to Leeds from both. From BDI it is £2.85 single, from BDQ it is also £2.85.

Not quite; it's £2.85 from Bradford Stations.

However if I get a ticket to Shipley from BDI it is only £1.35 single (according to Advantix), which must be valid via Leeds.

It isn't, because it's from Bradford Stations to Shipley.

Equally, London Terminals to Finsbury Park is not valid from Paddington. (There's a whole thread devoted to London Terminal validity a few weeks ago)

 

[142094]

Right so it's just Advantix being a pain then?

 

[yorkie]

The devil is in the detail

From : 0424 BRADFORD YK STNS

 

[John @ home]

if I get a ticket to Shipley from BDI it is only £1.35 single (according to Advantix), which must be valid via Leeds.

I don't think it's valid via Leeds.

The Fares Manual CD shows that this £1.35 ticket issued at Bradford Interchange is printed BRADFORD YK STNS - SHIPLEY YORKS route ANY PERMITTED. We therefore need to consult the Routeing Guide to discover the Permitted Routes for this journey.

Bradford Interchange is a member of Bradford Group Routeing Point.
Shipley Yorks has three associated Routeing Points, Bradford Group, Hellifield Group and Leeds Group.
Therefore BRADFORD YK STNS and SHIPLEY YORKS have a Routeing Point in common, Bradford Group.

There is a special rule in the Routeing Guide when the origin and destination have a Routeing Point in common.

Common Routeing Points
If the origin and destination have a common routeing point, the permitted route is direct via the shortest distance from the origin to the destination over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates. No doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single journey) is allowed which may require customers to change trains short of the routeing point, unless an easement allows a longer alternative route.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf

The shortest distance is from Shipley to Bradford Forster Square. From Shipley to Bradford Interchange by rail would require travel via Leeds, another associated Routeing Point for Shipley. There are several reasons why this would not be allowed by the Routeing Guide. Perhaps the simplest is that Leeds is not an appropriate Routeing Point for this journey because it fails the Fare Check.

As I mentioned on Sunday in the Blackwater - Twickenham thread, there is correspondence with ATOC which confirms that for some journeys a walk between stations is necessary.

Clive Feather to ATOC, 31 July 1998
Question 9: can a journey involve a walk between stations?
http://www.rossrail.co.uk/central/routeqn1.html

ATOC to Clive Feather, 25 September 1998
Qu.9: Can a journey involve a walk between stations?

Some journeys must involve a walk between stations; for example, the fare from Watford Junction to Harpenden is routed "St Albans Abbey" - this must involve a walk between St Albans Abbey and St Albans. As regards permitted routes in the Routeing Guide, there is nothing to prevent a customer using a route that involves a walk between stations (one is not breaking the "no doubling back" rule by doing this).
http://www.rossrail.co.uk/central/routeqn2.html

To travel from Bradford Interchange to Shipley with a BRADFORD YK STNS - SHIPLEY YORKS route ANY PERMITTED ticket, it is necessary first to walk to Bradford Forster Square station.

 

[142094]

Thanks for that John. I know there wouldn't be many situations where you'd want to go by train in these cases, but I wonder what would happen if you said someone with limited mobility was doing it.

 

[Deerfold]

To travel from Bradford Interchange to Shipley with a BRADFORD YK STNS - SHIPLEY YORKS route ANY PERMITTED ticket, it is necessary first to walk to Bradford Forster Square station.

Or if you're doing it Mon-Fri daytime get the freecitybus (http://www.wymetro.com/BusTravel/freetownandcitybuses/Bradford.htm).

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Right so it's just Advantix being a pain then?

Not really.

In most cases with Group stations like Bradford you can put BDI or BDQ into the origin or destination field and it will show that station name, but will print the name on the ticket as the name of the group station - in this case BRADFORD YKS STNS. It basically allows you to put a station name in and it will determine it is part of a group automatically. This actually makes it easier if you didn't know it was part of a group or what the code or name for the group was.

The same applies to Manchester where you can input MAN, MCV or MCO and it will always come out as MANCHESTER STNS.

This doesn't always apply however. If you put it LIV (Liverpool Lime St) to WAC (Warrington Central) for example the machine for some reason is unable to determine that WAC is part of a group then only gives you 3 fares which are TPE ONLY fares. To see all the correct fares you actually have to input 0445
the code for Warrington Stns, otherwise you can't see the fares!
i][/i]

 

[northwichcat]

Mobberley to Liverpool South Parkway route: Any Permitted is valid via Manchester or Chester while Knutsford to Liverpool South Parkway route: Any Permitted is not 'officially' valid via Manchester while Plumley to Liverpool South Parkway route: Any Permitted is valid via Manchester or Chester.

Plumley is the closest to Chester, followed by Knutsford then Mobberley, which is the closest to Manchester of the three.