Stagecoach Yorkshire and Chesterfield

[Teapot42]

Remember we have many years experience of providing a bus link to Holymoorside, its not commercially viable.
..
Yes people can change in Chesterfield onto an already frequent service to the hospital.

The trouble here is that the 1/2/3 go from Stephenson Place, not New Beetwell Street. Connections therefore aren't as easy. This, to me, is what Hulleys got right and what made the 84 viable - linking this side of town with the hospital without needing a change. You say you've got year of experience with Holymoorside, but ignore the changes Hulleys made which resulted in the service being more viable and well used.

Of course the poor connectivity within Chesterfield is mainly a result of the poor provision from the council in terms of location of stops / provision of bus-only routes across town. It's a shame the 1/2/3 can't loop around town as per the 43 etc to connect better with areas of town and incoming routes, but I guess the additional time to do so wouldn't work within the constraints of the timetable.

I'd refer you to the comment made by another poster on this subject. There is the dichotomy of people want simple ticketing and people want choice in ticketing, we've simplified a lot of the ticket range in recent years based on the later ask.

In return I'd ask - what is the plan after South Yorkshire franchising? Surely you are going to have to move away from Sheffield-centered tickets at that point? Removing the Chesterfield day ticket and not offering a Chesterfield-centered ticket for the routes that radiate out from there just seems odd.

As an example, my wife has gone in to town today. When she learned the Chesterfield day ticket was no more she decided to walk. Takes 45 minutes so not a short walk either. Presumably your sums say it's worth putting off some passengers to make more from the few who pay regardless?

I understand Hulleys received BSIP funding for the 170 rail station extension, some evening and Sunday trips. We're doing the rail extension and Sunday daytime commercially. We've spoken to DCC about the evening journeys.

The rail extension makes sense so I'm surprised Hulleys needed funding for this - maybe just taking what is on offer, can't blame them for that. As I've commented elsewhere, I hope the funding Hulleys were receiving is also offered to you for the same provision. While the focus seems to be on Holymoorside, a lot of people miss that this also means that Chatsworth Road is without a bus service in the evening.

I've wondered for a while if it wouldn't work better to extend the 90b to Walton Shops via Boythorpe (making it stand-alone) and have the 91 run up Chatsworth Road, turn down Somersall Lane, up Netherfield, Somersby Ave then Walton Back Lane to Holymoorside, and back down Chatsworth Road.

(Indeed I wonder if doing that during the day wouldn't work better as it fills in a few gaps that would be useful, plus if the Boythorpe X17 was extended through the top of Walton locals would have better provision with no more vehicles needed)

We consult on major service changes as we did in October 2024 and received hundreds of comments from customers.

Ah yes, how could I have forgotten about that? Maybe because I submitted some comments only to be told the decision had already been taken on what to run so, despite the consultation still being open, you weren't going to act on comments received. (Or words to that effect) Hopefully, as you mentioned, those comments were fed in to the upcoming changes and the reply I got was just poorly worded to give me the impression comments weren't worth making.

 

[mk1979]

@mk1979 I dont think this has anything to do with Stagecoach but I am not sure who to direct this comment to so could you please feedback to whomever.

Last Thursday there was a new electric Stagecoach bus displayed in the Market Place in Chesterfield Town Centre with staff promoting and taking comments re bus travel, which hopefully attracted a fair few people as town was ridicously really busy even by Thursday standards.

The problem was the leaflets being handed out were totally out of date, they still promote Hulleys services!! When I mentioned that to the person talking me through the leaflet they said they were aware but they are waiting for new leaflets to be published, surely these leaflets shouldnt be handed out? If there was one person tempted to try bus travel for the first time based on the info given they would have soon been disappointed

Thanks for flagging, the event was jointly hosted by ourselves and DCC Travel Ambassadors. Sounds like some of the literature was out of date, I'm aware there is an updated leaflet in production highlighting destinations by bus in the Peak District plus a new leaflet specifically for Stagecoach services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2025 ==

The trouble here is that the 1/2/3 go from Stephenson Place, not New Beetwell Street. Connections therefore aren't as easy. This, to me, is what Hulleys got right and what made the 84 viable - linking this side of town with the hospital without needing a change.

The 170 calls at Cavendish Street, literally round the corner from the 1/2/3 stop on Stephenson Place. Not perfect but a lot better than walking up from New Beetwell St. I'll refer you back to my previous comments regarding the viability of providing a link from everywhere to a hospital - most people don't go to hospital frequently enough to justify direct links, although the 84 does provide a direct link from Holymoorside to the Hospital.

You say you've got year of experience with Holymoorside, but ignore the changes Hulleys made which resulted in the service being more viable and well used.

Debateable whether the changes were viable or well used given what happened. See previous comments.

Of course the poor connectivity within Chesterfield is mainly a result of the poor provision from the council in terms of location of stops / provision of bus-only routes across town. It's a shame the 1/2/3 can't loop around town as per the 43 etc to connect better with areas of town and incoming routes, but I guess the additional time to do so wouldn't work within the constraints of the timetable.

We've got some work planned to improve wayfinding and integration of stops in Chesterfield.

In return I'd ask - what is the plan after South Yorkshire franchising? Surely you are going to have to move away from Sheffield-centered tickets at that point? Removing the Chesterfield day ticket and not offering a Chesterfield-centered ticket for the routes that radiate out from there just seems odd.

Our tickets aren't "Sheffield centered". See previous comments about customers wanting ticket simplification. Franchising is still several years away so plenty of time to work out what the future holds.

As an example, my wife has gone in to town today. When she learned the Chesterfield day ticket was no more she decided to walk. Takes 45 minutes so not a short walk either. Presumably your sums say it's worth putting off some passengers to make more from the few who pay regardless?

That journey would have cost no more that £3 each way so £6 return with singles, cheaper than a Chesterfield only day ticket would have cost. Clearly the single cap is currently £3 but I think the single ticket price for that journey may have been less.

(Indeed I wonder if doing that during the day wouldn't work better as it fills in a few gaps that would be useful, plus if the Boythorpe X17 was extended through the top of Walton locals would have better provision with no more vehicles needed)

Any extension costs more resource (at the very least hours and miles) by the very nature of you calling it an "extension". We're not an operator who squeezes running times to squueze in more, that kind of action leads to operator's ending in PI's.

Ah yes, how could I have forgotten about that? Maybe because I submitted some comments only to be told the decision had already been taken on what to run so, despite the consultation still being open, you weren't going to act on comments received. (Or words to that effect)

Fair to say we can file that statement into "it was never said"

The public consultation occurred in the period of statutory consultation with the Local Authority therefore changes can be made with their agreement.

There was a lot of feedback we received that was acted on. As I've said before, we cannot go redesigning routes because one person has had an idea.

 

[Teapot42]

most people don't go to hospital frequently enough to justify direct links.

While that might be true, a major comment I hear from neighbours when the subject of buses come up is the lack of a service to the hospital. But then I live in an area where the majority are of pensionable age, where the need to visit is generally higher.

Debateable whether the changes were viable or well used given what happened.

The changes were made well before things went south. Indeed, the recent change to merge the 84 and 170 was a backwards step. But we can debate what happened with Hulleys for ages, and it's easy to point to their failure as meaning anything they did was bad without really analysing things.

We've got some work planned to improve wayfinding and integration of stops in Chesterfield.

Good to hear. I know there has been talk about improvements such as bus priority and even providing a proper bus station, but with the current financial situation of the county council I can't see anything significant happening soon, despite some of the BSIP money being intended for bus priority. Even the map and service guide in New Beetwell Street is massively out of date, still showing services that were withdrawn before I moved here over a decade ago.

Our tickets aren't "Sheffield centered".

The maps tell a different story, with the different ticket types giving a wider area around Sheffield as the price goes up. For Chesterfield especially you don't need to go far from the centre in any direction other than north to hit the boundaries of the Silver ticket.

That journey would have cost no more that £3 each way so £6 return with singles, cheaper than a Chesterfield only day ticket would have cost.

Considering the Silver day ticket costs £6.50 I somehow doubt that. Your journey planner shows the ticket caps - I've not found many in Chesterfield which don't.

Any extension costs more resource (at the very least hours and miles) by the very nature of you calling it an "extension".

You've missed the context - extending through Walton, rather than heading up Walton Road and on to Matlock Road. It'd add a minute in each direction. In effect a parallel route but through the estate, rather than down a main road lined with large houses who probably never use the bus.

Fair to say we can file that statement into "it was never said"'

Say what you like, I've got the email which says responses had already been reviewed despite the consultation not having ended.

By the way, another thing to flag is that bustimes appears to have lost a lot of your services for the next week or so. Not sure if it's an issue at their end or if the updates to the data streams have thrown things off. It does look like Chesterfield services which have changed are the main culprits.

 

[Stan Drews]

@mk1979 i think you’re wasting your time trying to debate with @Teapot42 as they seem to be the founding member of the Hulley’s Supporters Club, believing their spectacular demise was just a minor blip and everything they did should be replicated!

 

[Teapot42]

@mk1979 i think you’re wasting your time trying to debate with @Teapot42 as they seem to be the founding member of the Hulley’s Supporters Club, believing their spectacular demise was just a minor blip and everything they did should be replicated!

Yeah, nice attempt at a wind up. Sounds like some people think enthusiasts and those who use buses should just pipe down, not make any suggestions or comments and just accept what they are given.

 

[Stan Drews]

Yeah, nice attempt at a wind up. Sounds like some people think enthusiasts and those who use buses should just pipe down, not make any suggestions or comments and just accept what they are given.

Certainly not a wind up, but you’re clearly quite detached from the realities of bus operation.
Don’t worry, you’re certainly not alone as a fair few enthusiasts think running buses is just like some sort of computer game with no grasp of the commercial aspects that make many ‘ideas’ pure fantasy.
I’m quite sure that @mk1979 has learned what works and what doesn’t, from his many years of experience in the industry.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Certainly not a wind up, but you’re clearly quite detached from the realities of bus operation.
Don’t worry, you’re certainly not alone as a fair few enthusiasts think running buses is just like some sort of computer game with no grasp of the commercial aspects that make many ‘ideas’ pure fantasy.
I’m quite sure that @mk1979 has learned what works and what doesn’t, from his many years of experience in the industry.

And furthermore it is very good of mk1979 to engage with readers on this forum. He will have huge demands on his time, and could very easily not bother with pointless debate about different ways of wasting his employer‘s money. He will have financial Targets to meet, and can’t introduce every pretty line on a map that might look good to a member of the public/enthusiast/forum member/politician (insert name of your choice). Asking a question is fine, but perhaps just accept the answer that is freely given in good faith.

 

[mk1979]

While that might be true, a major comment I hear from neighbours when the subject of buses come up is the lack of a service to the hospital. But then I live in an area where the majority are of pensionable age, where the need to visit is generally higher.

You’re conveniently ignoring my earlier comments about how we use data to identify demand and not base route planning on anecdotal feedback heard over the garden fence.

Ok so let’s do some simple maths, there are about 21,000 older people living in Chesterfield town. Older people visit hospital on average once every 3 years so that is 7,000 trips a year or around 20 trips a day.

Let’s be generous and say a quarter of all old people who live in the town live in your suburb (I’m being very generous here, and they visit hospital twice as often as the average older person) - that’s 10 trips a day. You want a direct bus from your suburb for a maximum of 10 trips a day?

Of those 10 trips, some will be made by ambulance or patient transport. Some will be made by car because even though the bus is free people prefer to drive because they like their car or the bus times might not be convenient for their appointment and some will use a car because they’re getting a lift.

So you want a direct bus, let’s say minimum hourly daytime frequency so 10 journeys a day for a handful of potential trips which will be paid at a discounted concession rate. The economics don’t make sense.

I’ve spent 20 years working with NHS Trusts on bus service provision, the economics of running buses to hospitals need to be based on the regular journeys made by those who work there, not on providing buses from everywhere on a “just in case” basis for potential patients and visitors.

The changes were made well before things went south. Indeed, the recent change to merge the 84 and 170 was a backwards step. But we can debate what happened with Hulleys for ages, and it's easy to point to their failure as meaning anything they did was bad without really analysing things.

The financial issues that brought down Hulleys had been brewing for quite some time, their published accounts show that. The 84 and 170 merger was presumably an attempt to save resource. As the previous operator of the 84 I’ll say for the third time it’s not a commercially viable route.

The maps tell a different story, with the different ticket types giving a wider area around Sheffield as the price goes up. For Chesterfield especially you don't need to go far from the centre in any direction other than north to hit the boundaries of the Silver ticket.

I’m quite convinced you’ll argue black is white on this one. We have two tickets - Silver and Gold. Silver represents the economic hinterland of South Yorkshire and North East Derbyshire that we serve and Gold represents the East Midlands and South Yorkshire regions that we serve - that’s not being “Sheffield centric”, if anything it is Chesterfield centric if you want to give it a label based on a map.

Considering the Silver day ticket costs £6.50 I somehow doubt that. Your journey planner shows the ticket caps - I've not found many in Chesterfield which don't.

You’re back in the realms of making things up, about 9 in 10 of our single ticket sales are under the £3 cap and you’re simply guessing what a Chesterfield only day ticket might cost if one existed.

You've missed the context - extending through Walton, rather than heading up Walton Road and on to Matlock Road. It'd add a minute in each direction. In effect a parallel route but through the estate, rather than down a main road lined with large houses who probably never use the bus.

No, you proposed the X17 extending even further into Walton presumably doing a loop around Greenway to give Walton more buses an hour benefitting you personally. Let’s be generous, let’s say that diversion costs an extra 3 minutes per trip that’s almost two hours a day. That’s on a route you already complain about timekeeping.

Say what you like, I've got the email which says responses had already been reviewed despite the consultation not having ended.

Right, another case of you wanting to prefer black is white to make a point that just isn’t true.

You’re now saying this email said consultation responses “had already been reviewed” but earlier you said “only to be told the decision had already been taken on what to run so, despite the consultation still being open, you weren't going to act on comments received. (Or words to that effect)”. Reviewing comments already received as the consultation takes place is normal practice and doesn’t mean decisions have already been taken and we were not to act on the feedback. The initial quote from you is just untrue (to put it politely).

So the consultation directed people to complete an online form (assuming you submitted your response this way). The form collected the anonymised comments. You may have received an automated acknowledgement of receipt of your feedback but it absolutely would not have said what you “think” it said or meant. We received a download of the comments twice, first time at my request part way through the consultation and second time at the end of the consultation. There were several hundred responses but I’m pretty sure those who gave feedback this way would not have received personalised feedback particularly part way through the consultation and because we only saw the anonymised responses.

I’ve taken the time to respond in good grace but arguing black is white just gives enthusiast forums like this a bad name despite the vast majority of posters being sensible. I realise you were fed stuff that just wasn’t true by a former employee of a recently closed bus company and you’ve preferred to accept whatever they told you third hand than my first hand account but that’s for you to reconcile with, not me. I think the only person trying to wind you up was the person feeding you third hand nonsense because perhaps they knew you’d go and regurgitate it on forums like this without question.

I’m quite comfortable with enthusiasts being a ‘critical friend’ to the industry and no one thinks enthusiasts should pipe down and accept the here and now forevermore but making stuff up to suit agendas is not ok.

 

[Dood75]

I've noticed from Bus Times over the last week or so that very little use of the 25 plate Enviro's are being used on the X17 route...anyone know why...distance maybe of the route?

 

[Killingworth]

You’re conveniently ignoring my earlier comments about how we use data to identify demand and not base route planning on anecdotal feedback heard over the garden fence.

Ok so let’s do some simple maths, there are about 21,000 older people living in Chesterfield town. Older people visit hospital on average once every 3 years so that is 7,000 trips a year or around 20 trips a day.

Let’s be generous and say a quarter of all old people who live in the town live in your suburb (I’m being very generous here, and they visit hospital twice as often as the average older person) - that’s 10 trips a day. You want a direct bus from your suburb for a maximum of 10 trips a day?

Of those 10 trips, some will be made by ambulance or patient transport. Some will be made by car because even though the bus is free people prefer to drive because they like their car or the bus times might not be convenient for their appointment and some will use a car because they’re getting a lift.

So you want a direct bus, let’s say minimum hourly daytime frequency so 10 journeys a day for a handful of potential trips which will be paid at a discounted concession rate. The economics don’t make sense.

I’ve spent 20 years working with NHS Trusts on bus service provision, the economics of running buses to hospitals need to be based on the regular journeys made by those who work there, not on providing buses from everywhere on a “just in case” basis for potential patients and visitors.


The financial issues that brought down Hulleys had been brewing for quite some time, their published accounts show that. The 84 and 170 merger was presumably an attempt to save resource. As the previous operator of the 84 I’ll say for the third time it’s not a commercially viable route.


I’m quite convinced you’ll argue black is white on this one. We have two tickets - Silver and Gold. Silver represents the economic hinterland of South Yorkshire and North East Derbyshire that we serve and Gold represents the East Midlands and South Yorkshire regions that we serve - that’s not being “Sheffield centric”, if anything it is Chesterfield centric if you want to give it a label based on a map.


You’re back in the realms of making things up, about 9 in 10 of our single ticket sales are under the £3 cap and you’re simply guessing what a Chesterfield only day ticket might cost if one existed.


No, you proposed the X17 extending even further into Walton presumably doing a loop around Greenway to give Walton more buses an hour benefitting you personally. Let’s be generous, let’s say that diversion costs an extra 3 minutes per trip that’s almost two hours a day. That’s on a route you already complain about timekeeping.


Right, another case of you wanting to prefer black is white to make a point that just isn’t true.

You’re now saying this email said consultation responses “had already been reviewed” but earlier you said “only to be told the decision had already been taken on what to run so, despite the consultation still being open, you weren't going to act on comments received. (Or words to that effect)”. Reviewing comments already received as the consultation takes place is normal practice and doesn’t mean decisions have already been taken and we were not to act on the feedback. The initial quote from you is just untrue (to put it politely).

So the consultation directed people to complete an online form (assuming you submitted your response this way). The form collected the anonymised comments. You may have received an automated acknowledgement of receipt of your feedback but it absolutely would not have said what you “think” it said or meant. We received a download of the comments twice, first time at my request part way through the consultation and second time at the end of the consultation. There were several hundred responses but I’m pretty sure those who gave feedback this way would not have received personalised feedback particularly part way through the consultation and because we only saw the anonymised responses.

I’ve taken the time to respond in good grace but arguing black is white just gives enthusiast forums like this a bad name despite the vast majority of posters being sensible. I realise you were fed stuff that just wasn’t true by a former employee of a recently closed bus company and you’ve preferred to accept whatever they told you third hand than my first hand account but that’s for you to reconcile with, not me. I think the only person trying to wind you up was the person feeding you third hand nonsense because perhaps they knew you’d go and regurgitate it on forums like this without question.

I’m quite comfortable with enthusiasts being a ‘critical friend’ to the industry and no one thinks enthusiasts should pipe down and accept the here and now forevermore but making stuff up to suit agendas is not ok.

I should just like to offer my appreciation of the patient way this has been explained from a position of very well informed inside knowledge. We are all very fortunate that such input is both available and given. Thank you.

 

[Hyebone]

I've noticed from Bus Times over the last week or so that very little use of the 25 plate Enviro's are being used on the X17 route...anyone know why...distance maybe of the route?

It won't be a charge issue, the vehicles are capable of running a full service thanks to clever interworking of less-intensive routes like the 43.

 

[Teapot42]

I will start by thanking you for taking the time to respond here. It is appreciated, even though we do seem to be at loggerheads most of the time. I do think some of the problem is how bad I'm being at conveying my points - some is difference of opinion, but some is misunderstanding.

You’re conveniently ignoring my earlier comments about how we use data to identify demand and not base route planning on anecdotal feedback heard over the garden fence.

This is actually something I'm quite interested in. A few years back I suggested using data from Google Maps to analyse what journeys people make, regardless of mode, and seeing if bus routes could be altered or provided to meet areas of high demand. Is this what you are actually doing now?

Ok so let’s do some simple maths, there are about 21,000 older people living in Chesterfield town. Older people visit hospital on average once every 3 years so that is 7,000 trips a year or around 20 trips a day.

While I'd suggest that visitors would also be a significant flow and we are talking a wider area, if numbers are this low then how does this support 2 buses an hour from the town centre to the hospital only? There are three other journeys each hour, (discounting the 84) so if usage is that low then surely the bus that runs this could be better used elsewhere? Or could another service be extended to the hospital instead?

I’m quite convinced you’ll argue black is white on this one.

I think the argument has diverged to where the point is somewhere over there >>>.
My point was that you don't need to get far out of Chesterfield before you need to buy the Gold rather than the Silver ticket. The equivalent of a Silver ticket covering Bakewell and Matlock would seem more attractive to potential users in that area. The Derbyshire Wayfarer is a better option than the Gold ticket in some cases, although there are limitations on travel within Sheffield.

You’re back in the realms of making things up, about 9 in 10 of our single ticket sales are under the £3 cap and you’re simply guessing what a Chesterfield only day ticket might cost if one existed.

It existed until recently and was under £6. I'm surprised that many are under the cap I will admit, having hit the cap on a very short journey recently.

No, you proposed the X17 extending even further into Walton presumably doing a loop around Greenway to give Walton more buses an hour benefitting you personally. Let’s be generous, let’s say that diversion costs an extra 3 minutes per trip that’s almost two hours a day. That’s on a route you already complain about timekeeping.

Doesn't benefit me personally as the route isn't one I (would need to) use. I do know people for who it would be useful however. The main reason for the suggestion is that it would pass more people, meaning it would be a more attractive option, thus encouraging more to use the bus rather than driving. If the diversion can be done within the current timetable it won't add extra time overall. Timekeeping is only really an issue on Saturday when to be honest I think a more radical overhaul would be worthwhile to reflect on the differences in usage compared to weekdays.

My overall suggestion actually gave no increase in buses in any area of Walton, but offered better options for where people want to travel to.

You’re now saying this email said consultation responses “had already been reviewed” but earlier you said “only to be told the decision had already been taken on what to run so, despite the consultation still being open, you weren't going to act on comments received. (Or words to that effect)”. Reviewing comments already received as the consultation takes place is normal practice and doesn’t mean decisions have already been taken and we were not to act on the feedback. The initial quote from you is just untrue (to put it politely).

I see how I missed adding the necessary context in my initial post, it wasn't that no comments would be acted on, my understanding was that ones towards the end would not be, at least not for that particular timetable change.

My comments were submitted by email and I received a personalised reply.

 

[ChrisC]

The maps tell a different story, with the different ticket types giving a wider area around Sheffield as the price goes up. For Chesterfield especially you don't need to go far from the centre in any direction other than north to hit the boundaries of the Silver ticket.

My point was that you don't need to get far out of Chesterfield before you need to buy the Gold rather than the Silver ticket. The equivalent of a Silver ticket covering Bakewell and Matlock would seem more attractive to potential users in that area. The Derbyshire Wayfarer is a better option than the Gold ticket in some cases, although there are limitations on travel within Sheffield.
end would not be, at least not for that particular timetable change.

You are very fortunate in Derbyshire to have the Derbyshire Wayfarer. Not only does it cost slightly less than the Gold ticket but is also valid on all operators. The fact that it is also valid to travel across the border into and out of Sheffield is a bonus.

Over the border in Nottinghamshire there is no multi operator ticket. Also at least from Chesterfield the Silver ticket is available for travel to the north and covers a huge area for only £6.50. In Nottinghamshire you don’t have to travel very far outside the local Dayrider ticket areas in Mansfield, Worksop or Retford before the only ticket available is the Gold ticket which now costs £10.50. Then if you have to use a Trent Barton bus you have to pay again. I live in Nottinghamshire and it has been good to recently receive my ENCTS pass. Days out by bus previous to this would regularly cost me in excess of £15. The only Stagecoach day tickets valid on my local routes are the Gold or same priced East Midlands Day Out.

A ticket similar to the Silver ticket would be good to have for the area south of Chesterfield and Nottinghamshire. It doesn’t seem fair that it is possible to travel all the way from Chesterfield north up into South Yorkshire and even West Yorkshire on a Silver ticket when there is no equivalent to travel much shorter distances in other directions.

 

[Teapot42]

You are very fortunate in Derbyshire to have the Derbyshire Wayfarer. Not only does it cost slightly less than the Gold ticket but is also valid on all operators. The fact that it is also valid to travel across the border into and out of Sheffield is a bonus.

Yes, at the moment the price means it's a good option. It was described as an introductory price so I'm not sure how long it will remain though, depending what it goes up to will determine if it's still such good value.

The limitation within Sheffield is the biggest problem for us - the times we go in to Sheffield it's usually not for the centre. To be honest, this is why it was so disappointing that the agreement for Chesterfield to join the Sheffield City Region was kyboshed by DCC as we have much stronger links in that direction than towards Derby (or indeed Nottingham).

A ticket similar to the Silver ticket would be good to have for the area south of Chesterfield and Nottinghamshire. It doesn’t seem fair that it is possible to travel all the way from Chesterfield north up into South Yorkshire and even West Yorkshire on a Silver ticket when there is no equivalent to travel much shorter distances in other directions.

I guess the argument is that while you *can* travel that far on the Silver ticket, most won't. However, I'd argue that most journeys would be feeding in to a neighbouring town or city, so why does Chesterfield to Bakewell command a price premium over Chesterfield to Sheffield?

The fare cap rather muddies any argument, but only where a single bus is needed for where you want to go.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Watching from a distance at the trading of riposte against riposte.

A few observations. I can fully understand why @mk1979 makes the comments about the viability of the Holymoorside route. Clearly, Stagecoach didn't think it was viable before. Given all the issues that Hulleys had, one might question why anything materially has changed? Certainly, it would be an interesting conversation to have with someone's boss... "Yeah, we couldn't make it work but that firm that went bust, they could so we'll take it back on?" Clearly, there will be a bedding down process with all the routes (with all the operators) in terms of both the commercial and operational realities vs. what was anticipated.

In relation to comments along the lines of getting "vox pops" about routes being introduced or extended. The number of times you hear that, or if only that was done, then they'd definitely be used... and then they're not.

As for the arguments on a Chesterfield based ticket... Am I missing the issue? Locally, you have the £3 cap, or that you can use the Silver ticket at £6.50. The issue comes in getting a cheap (i.e. Silver ticket) into the Peak District? Instead, it's the £10.50 Gold ticket...which seems quite the bargain when you look at the geographic area covered, and seems to be about par for most similar operator only day tickets? Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?

 

[Hyebone]

As for the arguments on a Chesterfield based ticket... Am I missing the issue? Locally, you have the £3 cap, or that you can use the Silver ticket at £6.50. The issue comes in getting a cheap (i.e. Silver ticket) into the Peak District? Instead, it's the £10.50 Gold ticket...which seems quite the bargain when you look at the geographic area covered, and seems to be about par for most similar operator only day tickets? Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?

It depends where you look. You can travel from Chesterfield to Pontefract in West Yorkshire on a £6.50 ticket, but if you want to spend a day on the Matlock locals, you need the £10.50 ticket. Although the £9 Derbyshire Wayfarer option exists here, but that's still £2.50 more than a ticket that can take you two counties away.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It depends where you look. You can travel from Chesterfield to Pontefract in West Yorkshire on a £6.50 ticket, but if you want to spend a day on the Matlock locals, you need the £10.50 ticket. Although the £9 Derbyshire Wayfarer option exists here, but that's still £2.50 more than a ticket that can take you two counties away.

It was more that I was checking that was the issue.

Wherever there is a boundary, you will have this type of "anomaly" although I do wonder how many people are spending a day on Matlock locals. Perhaps a rather niche market?

As it is... if the comparator is the Silver ticket at £6.50, well that's frankly ridiculous value. £10.50 for the sort of ticket and geographic coverage is more indicative, based on similar tickets around the country.

 

[Teapot42]

Given all the issues that Hulleys had, one might question why anything materially has changed?

Hulleys operated it in a different way to Stagecoach, and that seemed to work well for them. Most times I saw an 84 that had come from Holymoorside it seemed well loaded. They integrated it with the Bakewell bus (variously X70 or 170) to give a half-hour frequency up Chatsworth Road, and timed it such that Holymoorside residents could easily connect in with this bus to get to Bakewell. I should note that prior to taking this route over from Stagecoach, Hulleys did not serve the upper part of Chatsworth Road, so it only had the Stagecoach 91.

While they did reduce the frequency (to hourly, from every 45 minutes when Stagecoach ran it) this at least gave a consistent time each hour. Evening and Sunday integrated with the 170 to Bakewell giving a direct link, albeit with the trade-off of a longer overall journey time.

Whether what worked for Hulleys (I'm told it was profitable, at least while they were able to operate it reliably) would work for Stagecoach is of course another question.

As for the arguments on a Chesterfield based ticket... Am I missing the issue? Locally, you have the £3 cap, or that you can use the Silver ticket at £6.50. The issue comes in getting a cheap (i.e. Silver ticket) into the Peak District? Instead, it's the £10.50 Gold ticket...which seems quite the bargain when you look at the geographic area covered, and seems to be about par for most similar operator only day tickets? Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?

As I've commented elsewhere, the cap rather skews the argument as an out and back journey will always be cheaper with it in place. However if your intention is to pop to a few places, or you need to change buses for your final destination, then day and period tickets come in to play.

The Gold is undoubtedly a bargain for the area covered, but if you think about routes operated by Stonegravels depot and radiating out from Chesterfield you might understand my point. You can jump on a 43/44/50 and in an hour or so be in Sheffield with a Silver ticket. With the same Silver ticket you can jump on a 170 and about 10 minutes out from New Beetwell Street you cross the boundary in to needing a Gold ticket. The X17 is even more pronounced - you can get to Barnsley in a little over 90 minutes in one direction on Silver, but only just over 10 minutes to the Chesterfield boundary in the other.

I know Mr Kitchin doesn't agree with me calling it Sheffield centric, but you can travel a lot further out of Sheffield in any direction on a Silver than you can from Chesterfield.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Hulleys operated it in a different way to Stagecoach, and that seemed to work well for them. Most times I saw an 84 that had come from Holymoorside it seemed well loaded. They integrated it with the Bakewell bus (variously X70 or 170) to give a half-hour frequency up Chatsworth Road, and timed it such that Holymoorside residents could easily connect in with this bus to get to Bakewell. I should note that prior to taking this route over from Stagecoach, Hulleys did not serve the upper part of Chatsworth Road, so it only had the Stagecoach 91.

While they did reduce the frequency (to hourly, from every 45 minutes when Stagecoach ran it) this at least gave a consistent time each hour. Evening and Sunday integrated with the 170 to Bakewell giving a direct link, albeit with the trade-off of a longer overall journey time.

Whether what worked for Hulleys (I'm told it was profitable, at least while they were able to operate it reliably) would work for Stagecoach is of course another question.

It might not the be first route where a few well loaded buses disguises the fact that the service isn't viable.

Stagecoach may have different commercial views than Hulleys in terms of returns. Ultimately, one business has crashed ignominiously out of existence and perhaps it shows that their commercial acumen might not have been as accurate as required.

As I've commented elsewhere, the cap rather skews the argument as an out and back journey will always be cheaper with it in place. However if your intention is to pop to a few places, or you need to change buses for your final destination, then day and period tickets come in to play.

The Gold is undoubtedly a bargain for the area covered, but if you think about routes operated by Stonegravels depot and radiating out from Chesterfield you might understand my point. You can jump on a 43/44/50 and in an hour or so be in Sheffield with a Silver ticket. With the same Silver ticket you can jump on a 170 and about 10 minutes out from New Beetwell Street you cross the boundary in to needing a Gold ticket. The X17 is even more pronounced - you can get to Barnsley in a little over 90 minutes in one direction on Silver, but only just over 10 minutes to the Chesterfield boundary in the other.

I know Mr Kitchin doesn't agree with me calling it Sheffield centric, but you can travel a lot further out of Sheffield in any direction on a Silver than you can from Chesterfield.

The cap skews what people think is now a reasonable fare and, in any area, you will have a boundary and thereby some who feel that are disadvantaged. I most definitely did consider the position of Chesterfield in relation to the rest of the Yorkshire network.

However, how big is the actual problem? A Gold ticket is remarkable value at £10.50 but, if anything, it's the Silver ticket that really does distort things. £6.50 for that coverage is frankly bonkers.

And I say, anywhere you have a boundary, you'll have something that falls the wrong side of it.

Equating

 

[Teapot42]

Stagecoach may have different commercial views than Hulleys in terms of returns.

Beyond a doubt. I'm really just raising the point that while what Stagecoach operated in the past wasn't viable, that doesn't necessarily mean there aren't ways to make a service viable. Replicating the situation before Hulleys took over of course is not going to be any different, but there seldom seems to be any consideration given to alternatives beyond cutting frequencies.

However, how big is the actual problem? A Gold ticket is remarkable value at £10.50 but, if anything, it's the Silver ticket that really does distort things. £6.50 for that coverage is frankly bonkers.

In some ways the Silver ticket is a good piece of planning. You could split it in to 3 or 4 smaller areas, but only a small number of passengers would travel outside a relatively small area, so why bother with the complexity of having those 3 or 4 tickets? While I can travel from Clay Cross to Pontefract, I'm more likely to travel from Chesterfield to Sheffield.

At the time the silver and gold were introduced Stagecoach also had very limited services extending outside the area bordering Chesterfield so it wasn't much of a problem. They've since expanded that network a lot, so you get a lot more cases where a fairly short journey extends over the current boundary.

And I say, anywhere you have a boundary, you'll have something that falls the wrong side of it.

True, but boundaries would typically be placed to capture service provision for an area / town / depot. It feels like the network operated out of Stonegravels has expanded while the boundary has remained unchanged.

I don't know how much this factors in to the equation though, but the majority of these services are tendered. The X17 doubled in frequency and extended to Wirksworth using BSIP money, the 170 is arguably the only fully commercial new service which crosses or is outside the Silver boundary.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Beyond a doubt. I'm really just raising the point that while what Stagecoach operated in the past wasn't viable, that doesn't necessarily mean there aren't ways to make a service viable. Replicating the situation before Hulleys took over of course is not going to be any different, but there seldom seems to be any consideration given to alternatives beyond cutting frequencies.

In some ways the Silver ticket is a good piece of planning. You could split it in to 3 or 4 smaller areas, but only a small number of passengers would travel outside a relatively small area, so why bother with the complexity of having those 3 or 4 tickets? While I can travel from Clay Cross to Pontefract, I'm more likely to travel from Chesterfield to Sheffield.

At the time the silver and gold were introduced Stagecoach also had very limited services extending outside the area bordering Chesterfield so it wasn't much of a problem. They've since expanded that network a lot, so you get a lot more cases where a fairly short journey extends over the current boundary.

True, but boundaries would typically be placed to capture service provision for an area / town / depot. It feels like the network operated out of Stonegravels has expanded while the boundary has remained unchanged.

I don't know how much this factors in to the equation though, but the majority of these services are tendered. The X17 doubled in frequency and extended to Wirksworth using BSIP money, the 170 is arguably the only fully commercial new service which crosses or is outside the Silver boundary.

I do appreciate the geography and the history. Again, I reiterate the point. How big a problem is it really?

You can get to Matlock for £6.00 from Chesterfield. The number of people having a play about on the Matlock locals... very small (if any). In fact, given that these are off-peak tendered routes in the main, I'd suggest that there are few takers and that most passengers are pensioners anyway. Therefore, the number of people impacted is low, it's a very localised problem, and that's the reason why they haven't sought to introduce a special ticket.

The fact is that, for any comparable ticket in any other area, you'd be paying about a tenner. ZigZag on TrentBarton is £8.40 and that isn't valid before 0900 during the week. And if you're travelling from Clay Cross to Sheffield and back... well, I'd perhaps be thinking that £6.50 is a bit cheap. As I say, the issue isn't that the £10.50 is expensive but more that the silver ticket is bonkers cheap.

As for the 84, it would seem strange that Stagecoach would seek to take on a service that they couldn't make work before. Not only that, you seem to place a lot of faith in being assured that Hulleys were able to make it pay... faith that may be misplaced given their financial issues.

 

[Llandudno]

It depends where you look. You can travel from Chesterfield to Pontefract in West Yorkshire on a £6.50 ticket, but if you want to spend a day on the Matlock locals, you need the £10.50 ticket. Although the £9 Derbyshire Wayfarer option exists here, but that's still £2.50 more than a ticket that can take you two counties away.

I guess the main reason why the fare to Matlock or Bakewell from Chesterfield (outwith the fare cap) is more expensive than between Chesterfield and Sheffield ie needing to buy a £10.50 Gold ticket rather than a Silver ticket is that there is no public transport competition* on these routes.

* Unless you travel from Chesterfield to Matlock via Derby on the train, which takes much longer and costs more!

 

[Teapot42]

I do appreciate the geography and the history. Again, I reiterate the point. How big a problem is it really?

It's very hard to judge. Anyone who currently uses the bus will probably carry on doing so regardless of the cost as they either have no choice or are sufficiently committed to sustainable transport that they only use their car if they have no alternative.

Lower fares might drive modal shift. I'd consider using the bus to Bakewell at £6.50 as that's about how much you'd pay for parking and fuel. At £10.50? I'd drive. There are similar issues with the lack of multi-person tickets. A journey might be cost neutral by bus for a single traveller, but a couple or family tips the scales well in favour of the car.

You can get to Matlock for £6.00 from Chesterfield. The number of people having a play about on the Matlock locals... very small (if any).

There is the opposite flow to consider as well - I need to get another bus to meet up with the X17, and it's easier to do so for the 170 as it's a walk to the nearest stop. If you are on or close to the route then it's £6. If you aren't then the day tickets come in to play.
(This isn't meant at you personally, but I note a lot of journey assumptions start with the theoretical traveller living on and travelling to places on a single bus route. I've also commented elsewhere that a big omission from the fare cap is journey, as opposed to single trip, tickets)

You are right that pensioners are a major user demographic of many services. It's well out of the scope of this thread - and we are creeping as it stands - but it's hard not to think that finding a way for pensioners to contribute more towards the running of services may well make more commercially viable.

The fact is that, for any comparable ticket in any other area, you'd be paying about a tenner. ZigZag on TrentBarton is £8.40 and that isn't valid before 0900 during the week. And if you're travelling from Clay Cross to Sheffield and back... well, I'd perhaps be thinking that £6.50 is a bit cheap. As I say, the issue isn't that the £10.50 is expensive but more that the silver ticket is bonkers cheap.

I think you are right, and perception is a big thing here.

You also raise an interesting possible solution - although one that adds complication. Having off-peak day tickets. It could help persuade people to use the buses at quieter times over driving, but adds an extra layer of admin.

As for the 84, it would seem strange that Stagecoach would seek to take on a service that they couldn't make work before. Not only that, you seem to place a lot of faith in being assured that Hulleys were able to make it pay... faith that may be misplaced given their financial issues.

I wouldn't expect them to take it on as they used to run it. I'd hope they looked at options to make it viable by considering ways to expand the coverage to other areas so the whole could be viable. I can see a few ways to rejig provision that would reduce duplication and could well be viable, I don't know if anything like this was looked at - the impression you get from statements made in this thread is not, but who knows.

 

[mk1979]

I've noticed from Bus Times over the last week or so that very little use of the 25 plate Enviro's are being used on the X17 route...anyone know why...distance maybe of the route?

We're working through some warranty works with Alexander Dennis, as a consequene they're staying on routes closer to the depot and lower daily mileage short term until all 39 are delivered and in service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Apr 2025 ==

This is actually something I'm quite interested in. A few years back I suggested using data from Google Maps to analyse what journeys people make, regardless of mode, and seeing if bus routes could be altered or provided to meet areas of high demand. Is this what you are actually doing now?

I've stated upthread - we're using mobile phone data to understand total travel demand as the data is mode agnostic.

While I'd suggest that visitors would also be a significant flow and we are talking a wider area, if numbers are this low then how does this support 2 buses an hour from the town centre to the hospital only? There are three other journeys each hour, (discounting the 84) so if usage is that low then surely the bus that runs this could be better used elsewhere? Or could another service be extended to the hospital instead?

You were talking about travel from your suburb to the hospital from a patient perspective, not travel from the wider area.

Visitors are minimal, most patient journeys are for out-patient appointments that wouldn't then generate visitor journeys. As I've said, the key to bus services to/from hospital is to run buses for the hospital workers. There are four buses an hours between the town centre and the hospital, on the direct road, the way people would drive if they used a car.

Doesn't benefit me personally as the route isn't one I (would need to) use. I do know people for who it would be useful however. The main reason for the suggestion is that it would pass more people, meaning it would be a more attractive option, thus encouraging more to use the bus rather than driving. If the diversion can be done within the current timetable it won't add extra time overall.

Buses work best when they go direct from A to B, trundling around estates on an inter-urban bus route risks putting more people off than it attracts. We are definitely not going to go around slowing bus routes down by diverting buses down roads "just incase" when people can walk through to catch the bus on the direct route.

Beyond a doubt. I'm really just raising the point that while what Stagecoach operated in the past wasn't viable, that doesn't necessarily mean there aren't ways to make a service viable.

Rather than annecdotal 'over the garden fence' conversations and gut feel ("I think...", "I feel...") you need to apply science to understand latent demand and therefore opportunity. Simply making business decisions based on gut feel in business can be a one way ticket to bankruptcy.

Replicating the situation before Hulleys took over of course is not going to be any different, but there seldom seems to be any consideration given to alternatives beyond cutting frequencies.

Not true, our mileage has gone up year on year since 2022.

In some ways the Silver ticket is a good piece of planning. You could split it in to 3 or 4 smaller areas, but only a small number of passengers would travel outside a relatively small area, so why bother with the complexity of having those 3 or 4 tickets? While I can travel from Clay Cross to Pontefract, I'm more likely to travel from Chesterfield to Sheffield.

We had day tickets across 4 different areas and they were veey poor sellers, people also struggled to understand boundaries leading to mistakes and dare I say it, abuse, of the tickets. Lots of evidence shows people want ticket simplicity - listen to the debate raging in rail at the moment about ticket simplicity.

At the time the silver and gold were introduced Stagecoach also had very limited services extending outside the area bordering Chesterfield so it wasn't much of a problem. They've since expanded that network a lot, so you get a lot more cases where a fairly short journey extends over the current boundary.

That issue has existed for a long time for anyone in Chesterfield wanting to make journeys east.

True, but boundaries would typically be placed to capture service provision for an area / town / depot. It feels like the network operated out of Stonegravels has expanded while the boundary has remained unchanged.

The vast vast vast majority of customers have no idea, nor do they care, what depot a bus route or network runs from. You'd have a point if Gold didn't exist so people outside the Silver boundary didn't have a day or season ticket but Gold does exist.

I don't know how much this factors in to the equation though, but the majority of these services are tendered. The X17 doubled in frequency and extended to Wirksworth using BSIP money, the 170 is arguably the only fully commercial new service which crosses or is outside the Silver boundary.

You could argue tendered bus routes need to maximise their revenue to minimise the cost of the tender to the tax payer. There are plenty of long-standing routes that cross the Silver ticket boundary - 77, Pronto, 19, 21, 25, 1, 2 to name more than half a dozen.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's very hard to judge. Anyone who currently uses the bus will probably carry on doing so regardless of the cost as they either have no choice or are sufficiently committed to sustainable transport that they only use their car if they have no alternative.

Lower fares might drive modal shift. I'd consider using the bus to Bakewell at £6.50 as that's about how much you'd pay for parking and fuel. At £10.50? I'd drive. There are similar issues with the lack of multi-person tickets. A journey might be cost neutral by bus for a single traveller, but a couple or family tips the scales well in favour of the car.

I won't respond to all the comments as @mk1979 has done so in detail.

However, there is precious little evidence to suggest that price has any material impact on modal shift. In short and for majority of people, if you have a car, you generally use it. The reasons why modal shift occurs is when the use of the private car becomes too problematic or expensive - high parking charges, congestion zones, etc. Dropping the price of the bus ticket - not really.

If anything, I'm surprised that the Silver and Gold still exist but then again, I'm sure that there are good reasons for that.

 

[Teapot42]

I've stated upthread - we're using mobile phone data to understand total travel demand as the data is mode agnostic.

This is something that interests me from a technical perspective. I was thinking data from Google (and Apple) maps might be more detail rich as it could include more context, it sounds from what you are saying that you are using data from the cellular providers which I would assume has the benefit of better coverage as it isn't platform specific.

We are definitely not going to go around slowing bus routes down by diverting buses down roads "just incase" when people can walk through to catch the bus on the direct route.

The only comment I'd make here is that this suggestion puts the route through the centre of a built up area rather than skirting the edge. That brings a wider catchment within walking distance.

Not true, our mileage has gone up year on year since 2022.

Other than BSIP funded extensions and tenders, has any of this increase been new services or improving coverage though? Some services have increased in frequency to be closer to what they were pre-Covid, and you've done well in picking up tendered work, but in terms of coverage, especially to the west of Chesterfield, it seems to have gone backwards if anything.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Apr 2025 ==

However, there is precious little evidence to suggest that price has any material impact on modal shift. In short and for majority of people, if you have a car, you generally use it.

To be honest, I'm finding as I get older I'm more inclined to leave the car at home and let someone else deal with the hassle of the traffic. Plus it can be nice to unwind and stare out the window while going somewhere. Personally I would be more inclined to use these services if the cost was lower, but I don't know how representative I am.

I would be interested to know if the increase in cost (from £6.40 to £10.50) for a day ticket to use the 170 has put any users off, or whether use of day tickets on this route was so limited that it isn't statistically relevant. Thinking about it, I also wonder how scholar fares compare between the two options, as Hulleys did offer specific termly passes for school children.

 

[chessie]

I would be interested to know if the increase in cost (from £6.40 to £10.50) for a day ticket to use the 170 has put any users off, or whether use of day tickets on this route was so limited that it isn't statistically relevant. Thinking about it, I also wonder how scholar fares compare between the two options, as Hulleys did offer specific termly passes for school children.

This viewpoint is purely representing my own experience and views from a couple of other people I know but its made little difference. I dont own a car so I use the buses for getting out in the peaks most weeks, this usually involves more than one bus company so I rarely used the Hulleys only ticket.

Since the £2 bus fare cap we tended to get singles but since the increase to £3 cap we usually just get the Derbyshire Bus Only Wayfarer for £9, which is great value

 

[mk1979]

However, there is precious little evidence to suggest that price has any material impact on modal shift. In short and for majority of people, if you have a car, you generally use it. The reasons why modal shift occurs is when the use of the private car becomes too problematic or expensive - high parking charges, congestion zones, etc. Dropping the price of the bus ticket - not really.

This. If people made journey decisions purely based on price then far far more people would use the bus, the car is more expensive when the full cost of owning and running a car are taken into account. The AA estimate it costs somewhere in the region of £3,000 a year to own and run a car. Modal shift occurs for the reasons @TheGrandWazoo states.

This viewpoint is purely representing my own experience and views from a couple of other people I know but its made little difference. I dont own a car so I use the buses for getting out in the peaks most weeks, this usually involves more than one bus company so I rarely used the Hulleys only ticket.

I believe that research on the £2 cap shows that whilst many car drivers thought it was a good idea, very few used it. Any growth in use because of the £2 cap appear to have been from existing bus users and not enough to make it a commercially viable proposition.

 

[chessie]

I believe that research on the £2 cap shows that whilst many car drivers thought it was a good idea, very few used it. Any growth in use because of the £2 cap appear to have been from existing bus users and not enough to make it a commercially viable proposition.

As an existing bus user before and after the £2 cap I totally agree

 

[Teapot42]

This. If people made journey decisions purely based on price then far far more people would use the bus, the car is more expensive when the full cost of owning and running a car are taken into account. The AA estimate it costs somewhere in the region of £3,000 a year to own and run a car. Modal shift occurs for the reasons @TheGrandWazoo states.

Isn't that influenced by the reduction in services over the years though? If you can't make just one regular journey by bus, or if it's become inconvenient, then buying a car is an easy solution. So, while overall there is no doubt it costs more, if it enables or significantly improves a journey then that cost is easy to rationalise.

From a personal perspective, I was moved to buy my first car when the evening peak service on the 192 in Stockport became so bad that I was better walking from the town centre out to where I lived in Davenport. The buses were supposed to be every 3-4 minutes at that time but I was often waiting 30-40 minutes for one, despite the stop being within sight of the depot. What should have been a 25-30 minute journey to and from work near Reddish often took over an hour. It was 15 minutes to drive. Had that bus been reliable I might not have bought a car, or at least not for several more years. It wasn't always the most fun drive, but it was convenient and fairly reliable - which the bus wasn't.

However, I also appreciate that providing a service commercially that gives a level of convenience and reliability usually isn't viable.

I believe that research on the £2 cap shows that whilst many car drivers thought it was a good idea, very few used it. Any growth in use because of the £2 cap appear to have been from existing bus users and not enough to make it a commercially viable proposition.

I'm in the camp who used the bus more when the cap was £2, but not extensively.

To be honest, it's going to need a massive change in mentality before a cap like that is commercially viable outside London and maybe Manchester. (And it's questionable even then) Public transport in general needs subsidy of one form or another to overcome the inherent advantages the car has in the majority of situations.

How we normalise public subsidy for buses in the same way it is normalised for other road users I don't know though.