Stagecoach Merseyside and 500 service

[northwichcat]

I've just seen that Stagecoach Merseyside have applied to cancel their 500 Liverpool Airport-Liverpool One Bus Station service.

I thought it was strange as Arriva operate that service but on checking there is one service per day at 23:50 operated by Stagecoach Merseyside. It's also marked as a subsided service. However, there is also a 23:50 service operated by Ace Travel via a slightly different route and omitting Lime St station and Liverpool One. Presumably that's a commercial service unless Merseytravel are mad?

Is the cancellation the possible result of some one acting to stop a commercial service competing against a subsided one or are the routes different enough to have prevented that happening?

 

[danfitz123]

I think its just a case of the trip not being worth it for stagecoach. Arriva didn't want it and now stagecoach are trying to bin it off. I can see the 500 ending early evening soon.

 

[MCR247]

It can't be the case of a commercial service competing with a subsidised one because that isn't possible as the subsided one would have to be cancelled

 

[northwichcat]

It can't be the case of a commercial service competing with a subsidised one because that isn't possible as the subsided one would have to be cancelled

I'm aware that subsided services can't compete against commercial ones but it's not always quite as simple as just saying that.

If a new commercial service starts where there is already a subsided one, does the operator of the subsided service get given a notice period, like the operator has to give 56 days notice if they want to withdraw it?

As mentioned the Ace Travel route is slightly different even though it has the same route number and still goes between Liverpool Airport and the city centre. Would the different route be enough in itself to prevent it be considered as the same service as the subsided one? And could Ace Travel appeal to the Traffic Commissioner to reconsider that decision if they allow the subsided service continue to run?
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Arriva didn't want it and now stagecoach are trying to bin it off. I can see the 500 ending early evening soon.

If Arriva didn't want to run it commercially and Merseytravel wanted it to run then Merseytravel wouldn't be allowed to just give Arriva a subsidy to do so, it has to go out to tender with Merseytravel awarding the tender to whoever offers the best value for money. Arriva may have put in a bid to do so and lost out.

However, given Arriva have withdrawn from various evening services in Cheshire I think they either want to make more profit than the other operators on evening services or they just don't want to run that many evening services.

 

[radamfi]

It is not unheard of for a company to compete with a tendered service, especially if they tried to bid for the tender themselves. The tendered service then normally gets withdrawn after a while.

A recent example is the TfGM service from Salford Cresecent to MediaCityUK. Stagecoach subsequently extended their 50 service to MediaCityUK via Salford Crescent so the tendered service was withdrawn.

 

[34D]

And could Ace Travel appeal to the Traffic Commissioner to reconsider that decision if they allow the subsided service continue to run?

No. This isn't the TC's role at all. It is purelu a pte or council thing

 

[northwichcat]

No. This isn't the TC's role at all. It is purelu a pte or council thing

What if it's not the council who subside a service?

For instance, with the Salford Quays service mentioned by radamfi if Peel Holdings subsided it instead of TfGM and Stagecoach started running a commercial service or would that be allowed due to it not being public money spent on the subsidy?

 

[Deerfold]

What if it's not the council who subside a service?

For instance, with the Salford Quays service mentioned by radamfi if Peel Holdings subsided it instead of TfGM and Stagecoach started running a commercial service or would that be allowed due to it not being public money spent on the subsidy?

There's no rule against it but I'd imagine most companies would stop paying for a subsidised service fairly quickly in those circumstances. Most contracts have a clause allowing for early termination with sufficient notice.

Near me there are subsidised and non-subsidised services running similar routes.

The West Yorkshire-subsidised 3-times a day service shares roads with services which are between 1 and 6 times an hour. It has no restrictions on who can use it, but for most customers with a choice it will have a longer journey time as it keeps popping off the main route to serve small communities (If I have a day or longer multioperator ticket and I'm feeling lazy I occasionally catch it the 3 stops to/from my local chippie on a short section identical to other buses. I've caught it to or from town 3 times in 6 years.

The North Yokshire subsidised services will not let passengers do journeys which can be done on the 2bph services they are similar to.

 

[Statto]

It is not unheard of for a company to compete with a tendered service, especially if they tried to bid for the tender themselves. The tendered service then normally gets withdrawn after a while.

A recent example is the TfGM service from Salford Cresecent to MediaCityUK. Stagecoach subsequently extended their 50 service to MediaCityUK via Salford Crescent so the tendered service was withdrawn.

In Liverpool there's a couple Evening & Sunday services 210/250 that operate down some of same Roads as commercial service 20/21 between Black Bull & the City Centre however the routes beyond Black Bull & outer terminus's are different.

Think the rule is tendered services can only operate if they are socially necessary, & must be open to tender first.